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    Do you believe in Predestination?

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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Theophilus on Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:47 pm

    Yidda wrote:


    really?
    Absolutely. In fact, I've already established my position and proved with direct and explicit evidences that it is in accordance to the teachings of St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas. I've proven so much already, how about you?
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Theophilus on Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:56 pm

    Yidda wrote:

    That, ultimately it is God who wills the doom of his own creature. St. Thomas reprobation is simply God permitting the sinner to fall or to commit sin.

    vs

    To Augustinianism it is attribute it to man and to the eternal Decree of God.
    Wrong. For St. Thomas, the permission of God for some to fall away is to be understood in the sense that He leaves (or abandons) them in their own "free-will" apart from His saving Grace. You quoted the father out of context, and what you did is just a mere cherry-picking without considering the rest of His explanations (which are vitally interconnected). I will post again here those passages from the Summa that you have passed over (which you have ignored also when I first quoted them in my previous post). Please READ between the lines:

    St. Thomas wrote:

    • Reply to Objection 1:God loves all men and all creatures, inasmuch as He wishes them all some good; but He does not wish every good to them all. So far, therefore, as He does not wish this particular good---namely, eternal life---He is said to hate or reprobated them.
    Hmmm... sounds like "selective Salvation" to me. Here's more from St. Thomas Aquinas:

    • Reply to Objection 2:
      Reprobation differs in its causality from predestination. This latter is the cause both of what is expected in the future life by the predestined---namely, glory---and of what is received in this life---namely, grace. Reprobation, however, is not the cause of what is in the present---namely, sin; but it is the cause of ABANDONMENT by God. It is the cause, however, of what is assigned in the future---namely, eternal punishment. But guilt proceeds from the free-will of the person who is reprobated and DESERTED by grace.
      In this way, the word of the prophet is true---namely, "Destruction is thy own, O Israel."


    • Reply to Objection 3: Reprobation by God does not take anything away from the power of the person reprobated. Hence, when it is said THAT THE REPROBATED CANNOT OBTAIN GRACE, this must not be understood as implying absolute impossibility: but only conditional impossibility: as was said above, that the predestined must necessarily be saved; yet a conditional necessity, which does not do away with the liberty of choice.Whence, although anyone reprobated by God cannot acquire grace, nevertheless that he falls into this or that particular sin comes from the use of his free-will. Hence it is rightly imputed to him as guilt.
    Thus, for St. Thomas, Reprobation is God's permission of some to fall away, understood as the
    divine abandonment leaving those that are not elected on their own "free will" apart from His saving Grace
    . And when they have fallen away out of their own free will, then it would be rightly imputed to them as guilt. That's also the Augustinian position! That's exactly my position!
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Yidda on Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:59 pm

    Theophilus wrote:
    Yes, all of us are born sinners. Therefore, all of us deserve hell. So even if God won't deliver anyone from us, He remainsl Just and Fair, right? But it is the divine prerogative to predestine some to Salvation and to leave the rest in their bondage. St. Augustine will absolutely agree with me on that:

    • Faith, then, as well in its beginning as in its completion, is God's gift; and let no one have any doubt whatever, unless he desires to resist the plainest sacred writings, that this gift is given to some, while to some it is not given. But why it is not given to all ought not to disturb the believer, who believes that from one all have gone into a condemnation, which undoubtedly is most righteous; so that even if none were delivered therefrom, there would be no just cause for finding fault with God. Whence it is plain that it is a great grace for many to be delivered, and to acknowledge in those that are not delivered what would be due to themselves; so that he that glories may glory not in his own merits, which he sees to be equalled in those that are condemned, but in
      the Lord. But why He delivers one rather than another—"His judgments are unsearchable, and His ways past finding out." (Romans 11:33) For it is better in this case for us to hear or to say, "O man, who are you that repliest against God?" (Romans 9:20) than to dare to speak as if we could know what He has chosen to be kept secret. Since, moreover, He could not will anything unrighteous.
      ~ St. Augustine, On the Predestination of the Saints, Ch. 16
    Please don't totally ignore this particular passage from St. Augustine. He is here defending his position on Predestination, according to which some are granted faith, and some are not. Pelagius was horrified by this doctrine, the same way as it seems you are now. Pelagius, the heretic, accused St. Augustine of teaching that God unfairly chooses whom He will, but take heed to what the great Doctor of Grace said in defense to this allegation:

    • But why it is NOT GIVEN TO ALL ought not to disturb the believer, who believes that from one (i.e. Adam) all have gone into a condemnation, which undoubtedly is most righteous; so that even if none were delivered therefrom, there would be no just cause for finding fault with
      God
      .

    All of us are born in Sin (born with Original Sin from Adam), and none of us deserve eternal life. So, according to St. Augustine, even if none were delivered from us, God is still Just - since His Justice demand sins to be punished. Then shortly, he says concerning Predestination:

    • Whence it is plain that it is a great grace for many to be delivered, and to acknowledge in those that are not delivered what would be due to themselves; so that he that glories may glory not in his own merits, which he sees to be equalled in those that are condemned, but in
      the Lord.

    Straight from St. Augustine himself...


    Since I have shown in my previous post that the theology of St. Thomas and St. Augustin is not the same as yours.

    care to answer this pls,
    Now are the unborn souls sinners? why are they foredoomed?
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Theophilus on Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:02 pm

    Yidda wrote:

    Yes that was Augustinianism position. But not of St. Augustine.

    Did I ever say anything NOT in accordance to the teachings of the two fathers? Show me one, and I will quote them directly to prove your accusation to be otherwise. I'm challenging you.


    Last edited by Theophilus on Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Theophilus on Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:03 pm

    deleted... double post
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Yidda on Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:09 pm

    Theophilus wrote:

    Did I ever said anything not in accordance to the teachings of the two fathers? Show me one, and I'll prove it otherwise. I'm challenging you.

    It is according to copypaste only that you are thesame sir, but according to theology I believe you intentionally try to twist their stand, since it is obvious that it is a sort of calvinism.

    Let's talk about it in your own words what do they teach.

    Since I have shown in my previous post that the theology of St. Thomas and St. Augustin is not the same as yours.

    care to answer this pls,

    Now are the unborn souls sinners? why are they foredoomed?
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Theophilus on Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:17 pm

    Yidda wrote:
    In your Augustianism "other words, the divine abandonment leaving those that are not elected on their own free will". Look God is the damnator. The creatures simply fulfilled the damnation prepared for them by the Damnator God from Eternity.

    Is that the same?
    You greatly misunderstood my position. What you are against is the heresy of Calvin's Positive Reprobation. I don't believe such monstrous doctrine, so please stop making strawman fallacies. I'm no Calvinist, I'm an Augustinian.

    God is not the author of Sin. In reprobation, He merely abandons the non-elect leaving them in their own "free-will" which is driven by their sinfulness. It was the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas! Read on:

    • Reply to Objection 2:
      Reprobation differs in its causality from predestination. This latter is the cause both of what is expected in the future life by the predestined---namely, glory---and of what is received in this life---namely, grace. Reprobation, however, is not the cause of what is in the present---namely, sin; but it is the cause of ABANDONMENT by God. It is the cause, however, of what is assigned in the future---namely, eternal punishment. But guilt proceeds from the free-will of the person who is reprobated and DESERTED by grace.
      In this way, the word of the prophet is true---namely, "Destruction is
      thy own, O Israel."



    • Reply to Objection 3: Reprobation by God does not take anything away from the power of the person reprobated. Hence, when it is said THAT THE REPROBATED CANNOT OBTAIN GRACE, this must not be understood as implying absolute impossibility: but only conditional impossibility: as was said above, that the predestined must necessarily be saved; yet a conditional necessity, which does not do away with the liberty of choice.Whence, although anyone reprobated by God cannot acquire grace, nevertheless that he falls into this or that particular sin comes from the use of his free-will. Hence it is rightly imputed to him as guilt.
    Did you ever consider to read these expositions from St. Thomas? Absolutely not, because perhaps you know you would render your own accusation that I have a different position from them baseless if you do.

    So if you'd accuse me of heresy (which seems to be the case based on the tone of your reasoning), then you must do the same to St. Thomas Aquinas, from whom I get my explanation regarding reprobation.
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Yidda on Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:33 pm

    Theophilus wrote:
    You greatly misunderstood my position. What you are against is the heresy of Calvin's Positive Reprobation. I don't believe such monstrous doctrine, so please stop making strawman fallacies. I'm no Calvinist, I'm an Augustinian.

    God is not the author of Sin. In reprobation, He merely abandons the non-elect leaving them in their own "free-will" which is driven by their sinfulness. It was the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas! Read on:

    • Reply to Objection 2:
      Reprobation differs in its causality from predestination. This latter is the cause both of what is expected in the future life by the predestined---namely, glory---and of what is received in this life---namely, grace. Reprobation, however, is not the cause of what is in the present---namely, sin; but it is the cause of ABANDONMENT by God. It is the cause, however, of what is assigned in the future---namely, eternal punishment. But guilt proceeds from the free-will of the person who is reprobated and DESERTED by grace.
      In this way, the word of the prophet is true---namely, "Destruction is
      thy own, O Israel."



    • Reply to Objection 3: Reprobation by God does not take anything away from the power of the person reprobated. Hence, when it is said THAT THE REPROBATED CANNOT OBTAIN GRACE, this must not be understood as implying absolute impossibility: but only conditional impossibility: as was said above, that the predestined must necessarily be saved; yet a conditional necessity, which does not do away with the liberty of choice.Whence, although anyone reprobated by God cannot acquire grace, nevertheless that he falls into this or that particular sin comes from the use of his free-will. Hence it is rightly imputed to him as guilt.
    Did you ever consider to read these expositions from St. Thomas? Absolutely not, because perhaps you know you would render your own accusation that I have a different position from them baseless if you do.

    So if you'd accuse me of heresy (which seems to be the case based on the tone of your reasoning), then you must do the same to St. Thomas Aquinas, from whom I get my explanation regarding reprobation.


    Thus as men are ordained to eternal
    life through the providence of God, it is likewise is part of the
    providence To PERMIT some To Fall away from that end; this is called
    REPROBATION.


    The position of St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas are in respectful of the freewill of man. God simply gives permission to fall away (to permit), permit to commit sin. Do not forget on this one please.

    And by the way St. Thomas and St. Augustin are not heretics,they do not teach : that God elected or decreed others to damnation.

    Care to answer my question now please?
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Theophilus on Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:48 pm

    Yidda wrote:
    Salvation is two-fold: the gift of God and our cooperation with that gift by free will. Those who are condemned were offered the gift, in every case without exception, but they freely chose not to accept the gift of salvation, i.e. they sinned seriously and did not repent.

    The main reason why people reject the Gospel (which is God's gift) is that they are in the bondage of Sin with their "will". Our nature determines the courses of our will, and since we have become by nature sinners (due to the Fall), the inclinations of our will become only evil continuously. Therefore, unless some power which is greater than our rebellion is given to effectually draw us to Christ, we can never ever respond to the Gospel. "No man can come to me," Christ said, "unless the Father has enabled him" (Jn. 6:65). St. Augustine stated thus:

    • A man's free-will, indeed, avails for nothing EXCEPT TO SIN, if he knows not the way of truth; and even after his duty and his proper aim shall begin to become known to him, unless he also take delight in and feel a love for it, he neither does his duty, nor sets about it, nor lives rightly. [St. Augustine, On the Spirit And The Letter, Ch. 5 (III)]
    But it doesn't mean that sinners have no "free-will", of course they do have a "free-will". But in what sense is the will of the sinner "free"? St. Augustine will answer the question:

    • "It is not, therefore, true, as some affirm that we say, and as that correspondent of yours ventures moreover to write, that "all are forced into sin," as if they were unwilling, "by the necessity of their flesh;" but if they are already of the age to use the choice of their own mind, they are both retained in sin by their own will, and by their own will are hurried along from sin to sin. For even he who persuades and deceives does not act in them, except that they may commit sin by their will, either by ignorance of the truth or by delight in iniquity, or by both evils—as well of blindness as of weakness. But this will, which is free in evil things because it takes pleasure in evil, IS NOT FREE IN GOOD THINGS, for the reason that it has not been made free. Nor can a man will any good thing unless he is aided by Him who cannot will evil—that is, by the grace of God through Jesus Christ our Lord." [St. Augustine, Against The Two Letters Of The Pelagians, Book I, Ch. 7]
    In short, sinners have "free-will" only in the sense that they act according to the innermost desires of their heart, which is to gratify the cravings of the flesh beyond any constraining force outside themselves. By their own will, according to St. Augustine, they are "hurried along from sin to sin". They cannot will any good thing unless they are "aided by Him who cannot will evil". They are "free" in regards to evil things, but not in good things.

    So how, then, can a sinner respond to the Gospel if this is his natural condition in the State of Sin? In the above passage, St. Augustine asserted that a divine aid is needed. In another passage, he described this divine aid as the infallible grace:

    • Therefore aid is brought to the infirmity of human will, so that it might be unchangeably and infallibly influenced by divine grace; and thus, although weak, it still might not fail, nor be overcome by any adversity. ~ [On Rebuke and Grace, Ch. 38]
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Theophilus on Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:56 pm

    Yidda wrote:


    Thus as men are ordained to eternal
    life through the providence of God, it is likewise is part of the
    providence To PERMIT some To Fall away from that end; this is called
    REPROBATION.


    The position of St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas are in respectful of the freewill of man. God simply gives permission to fall away (to permit), permit to commit sin. Do not forget on this one please.

    And by the way St. Thomas and St. Augustin are not heretics,they do not teach : that God elected or decreed others to damnation.

    Care to answer my question now please?

    First, I do not deny "free will". Where did I ever say that man's "free will" is lost? Didn't I consistently include "free will" in all of my assertions and explanations in this thread?

    Second, I've already explained in what sense does "to permit" is to be understood according to the REST of St. Thomas' expositions that you've passed over, and it seems that you are ignoring it... why?
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Theophilus on Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:09 pm

    Yidda wrote:
    Augustine does not sufficiently account for free will in his understanding of predestination. How can free will affect whether or not one is predestined? The Elect in Heaven are beyond Time. So everyone who ever will go to Heaven is already there. And God knows the eternal final destination of all created persons, since He is all knowing. But His knowledge does not control the choice of their free will.

    Please listen to St. Augustine as he refutes your assertion in red,

    • It is certain that it is we that will when we will, but IT IS HE WHO MAKES US WILL what is good, of whom it is said (as he has just now expressed it), "The will is prepared by the Lord." (Proverbs 8:35) Of the same Lord it is said, "The steps of a man are ordered by the Lord, and his way does He will." Of the same Lord again it is said, "It is God who works in you, even to will!" (Philippians 2:13) It is certain that it is we that act when we act; but IT IS HE WHO MAKES US ACT, by applying EFFICACIOUS POWERS to our will, who has said, "I will make you to walk in my statutes, and to observe my judgments, and to do them." (Ezekiel 36:27) When he says, "I will make you . . . to do them," what else does He say in fact than, "I will take away from you your heart of stone," from which used to arise your inability to act, "and I will give you a heart of flesh," (Ezekiel 36:26) in order that you may act? And what does this promise amount to but this: I will remove your hard heart, out of which you did not act, and I will give you an obedient heart, out of which you shall act? It is He who causes us to act, to whom the human suppliant says, "Set a watch, O Lord, before my mouth." ~ [On Grace and Free Will, Ch. 32-xvi]


    • From these statements of the inspired word, and from similar passages which it would take too long to quote in full, it is, I think, sufficiently clear that God works in the hearts of men TO INCLINE THEIR WILLS WHEREVER HE PLEASES, whether TO GOOD DEEDS according to His mercy, OR TO EVIL after their own deserts; His own judgment being sometimes manifest, sometimes secret, but always righteous. This ought to be the fixed and immoveable conviction of your heart, that there is no unrighteousness with God. Therefore, whenever you read in the Scriptures of Truth, that men are led aside, or that their hearts are blunted and hardened by God, never doubt that some ill deserts of their own have first occurred, so that they justly suffer these things. ~ [On Grace and Free Will, Ch. 43]
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Theophilus on Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:11 pm

    Yidda wrote:
    It is not that God made an arbitrary choice to save some and not others. All were offered salvation. Some chose not to accept it.
    Can you please define what you mean by "arbitrary choice"?
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Theophilus on Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:16 pm

    Yidda wrote:


    Since I have shown in my previous post that the theology of St. Thomas and St. Augustin is not the same as yours.

    care to answer this pls,
    Now are the unborn souls sinners? why are they foredoomed?
    On the contrary, all the quotations that I've shown from the two Church fathers are all in favor of my position, even the ones that you've quoted out-of-context (which you are now evading after I have presented my refutations). They are perfectly parallel to what I believe. All you did was mere "cherry-picking" (quoting out-of-context and ignoring the rest of the essential explanations surrounding it) and pretend that you see nothing of those passages from the fathers that EXPLICITELY / DIRECLY affirms my assertions. How's that?

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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Theophilus on Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:21 pm

    Yidda wrote:


    Again, it is foolish to add 'infallible' to the call of grace, since all graces are without error. Also, all persons are offered grace sufficient for salvation; the only souls who are sent to Hell are those who commit actual mortal sin and refuse to repent. All persons are offered the grace of final perseverance; some choose not to accept it.

    You misunderstood the interpretation of Augustine what he was saying, and do not take into account the Church's teaching on salvation.

    When I say "infallible", it means that it certainly attains it purpose without fail. It does not merely mean "without error", but "without fail in attaining its purpose".
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Yidda on Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:29 pm

    Theophilus wrote:




    Please listen to St. Augustine as he refutes your assertion in red,

    • It is certain that it is we that will when we will, but IT IS HE WHO MAKES US WILL what is good, of whom it is said (as he has just now expressed it), "The will is prepared by the Lord." (Proverbs 8:35) Of the same Lord it is said, "The steps of a man are ordered by the Lord, and his way does He will." Of the same Lord again it is said, "It is God who works in you, even to will!" (Philippians 2:13) It is certain that it is we that act when we act; but IT IS HE WHO MAKES US ACT, by applying EFFICACIOUS POWERS to our will, who has said, "I will make you to walk in my statutes, and to observe my judgments, and to do them." (Ezekiel 36:27) When he says, "I will make you . . . to do them," what else does He say in fact than, "I will take away from you your heart of stone," from which used to arise your inability to act, "and I will give you a heart of flesh," (Ezekiel 36:26) in order that you may act? And what does this promise amount to but this: I will remove your hard heart, out of which you did not act, and I will give you an obedient heart, out of which you shall act? It is He who causes us to act, to whom the human suppliant says, "Set a watch, O Lord, before my mouth." ~ [On Grace and Free Will, Ch. 32-xvi]


    • From these statements of the inspired word, and from similar passages which it would take too long to quote in full, it is, I think, sufficiently clear that God works in the hearts of men TO INCLINE THEIR WILLS WHEREVER HE PLEASES, whether TO GOOD DEEDS according to His mercy, OR TO EVIL after their own deserts; His own judgment being sometimes manifest, sometimes secret, but always righteous. This ought to be the fixed and immoveable conviction of your heart, that there is no unrighteousness with God. Therefore, whenever you read in the Scriptures of Truth, that men are led aside, or that their hearts are blunted and hardened by God, never doubt that some ill deserts of their own have first occurred, so that they justly suffer these things. ~ [On Grace and Free Will, Ch. 43]

    where in it, that says : God controls one's own's choice of the freewill? God's give grace to us and we cooperate interiorly that is what we call good and what you read is simply and plainly saying. Grace is the effect God wrought on our soul. I thought your theology is compatible of that St. Augustin? And harmonious in freewill? seems I begun to smell the doctrine of calvin.


    care to answer my question. above pls,


    Last edited by Yidda on Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:51 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Yidda on Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:30 pm

    Theophilus wrote:

    When I say "infallible", it means that it certainly attains it purpose without fail. It does not merely mean "without error", but "without fail in attaining its purpose".

    I thought your theology is the same as Aquinas and Augustin do they use thesame words like that infallible grace.
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Yidda on Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:34 pm

    Theophilus wrote:

    First, I do not deny "free will". Where did I ever say that man's "free will" is lost? Didn't I consistently include "free will" in all of my assertions and explanations in this thread?

    Second, I've already explained in what sense does "to permit" is to be understood according to the REST of St. Thomas' expositions that you've passed over, and it seems that you are ignoring it... why?

    It is clear that it is inconsistent with the theology of Aquinas and Agustin read again ....please

    As clear as the sun too : permit to fall is simply permit to sin (it is
    man's action Is it not?)
    , God does not take away free-will.

    In your Augustianism "other words, the divine abandonment leaving those that are not elected on their own free will". Look God is the damnator.The creatures simply fulfilled the damnation prepared for them by the Damnator God from Eternity.

    Is that thesame?
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Yidda on Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:37 pm

    edit.
    Since I have shown in my previous post that the theology of St. Thomas and St. Augustin is not the same as yours.

    care to answer this pls,

    Now are the unborn souls sinners? why are they foredoomed?
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Theophilus on Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:00 pm

    Yidda wrote:

    where in it it say God controls one's own's freewill? God's give grace to us and we cooperate interiorly that is what we call good and what you read is simply and plainly saying. Grace is the effect God wrought on our soul. I thought your theology is compatible of that St. Augustin? And harmonious in freewill? seems I begun to smell the doctrine of calvin.

    care to answer my question. above pls,

    Well, that's a natural response from people who have absolutely NO IDEA on what St. Augustine and St. Thomas really believed. Thomists were also accused of Calvinism by Molinists, so I understand very well why do you react that way. In that case I suggest you to read this article by Jimmy Akin entitled "A Tiptoe Through TULIP", which exposes the similarities of Calvin's theology with the Thomist and Augustinian, and of course its heresies,

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm

    As to your question "where in it it say God controls one's own freewill?" - It seems to me that you didn't even read the quoted passages from St. Augustine. St. Augustine, as I myself do, maintained "free will" and "God's Sovereignty over man's will". He said, "it is we that will when we will" - which pertains to "free will"; then adds, "but it is He who makes us will" - which pertains to God's lordship over our free will. In the second quote he said, "God works in the hearts of men TO INCLINE their wills wherever he pleases, whether to good deeds according to His mercy, or to evil after their own deserts". Isn't this an explicit statement of affirmation that God controls our wills, whether to good or to evil? Do you still have to capriciously look for the verbatim "control" when there is a more direct term used in place of "control" which is "to incline... wherever he pleases"?

    I have more to show you. Read on:

    • I think I have now discussed the point fully enough in opposition to those who vehemently oppose the grace of God, by which, however, the human will is not taken away, but changed from bad to good, and assisted when it is good. I think, too, that I have so discussed the subject, that it is not so much I myself as the inspired Scripture which has spoken to you, in the clearest testimonies of truth; and if this divine record be looked into carefully, it shows us that not only men's good wills, which God Himself converts from bad ones, and, when converted by Him, directs to good actions and to eternal life, but also those which follow the world are so entirely at the disposal of God, that He turns them wherever He wills, and whenever He wills,— to bestow kindness on some, and to heap punishment on others, as He Himself judges right by a counsel most secret to Himself, indeed, but beyond all doubt most righteous. ~ St. Augustine, On Grace and Free Will, Ch. 41 [XX]
    Do we have "free will"? St. Augustine's answer would be YES. But St. Augustine also taught that God is Sovereign (btw, Sovereignty always implies "control") over man's free will. "Not only men's good wills... but also those which follow the world are SO ENTIRELY AT THE DISPOSAL OF GOD, that HE TURNS THEM WHEREVER HE WILLS, and WHEREVER HE WILLS". Do you even believe this? No. But I do. Therefore, it is not me who contradicts the fathers, IT IS YOU.
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Yidda on Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:10 pm

    Theophilus wrote:
    On the contrary, all the quotations that I've shown from the two Church fathers are all in favor of my position, even the ones that you've quoted out-of-context (which you are now evading after I have presented my refutations). They are perfectly parallel to what I believe. All you did was mere "cherry-picking" (quoting out-of-context and ignoring the rest of the essential explanations surrounding it) and pretend that you see nothing of those passages from the fathers that EXPLICITELY / DIRECLY affirms my assertions. How's that?


    No. greatly misunderstood or intentionally.
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Theophilus on Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:13 pm

    Yidda wrote:

    I thought your theology is the same as Aquinas and Augustin do they use thesame words like that infallible grace.

    Let me tell you this once more: I read them - YOU DON'T...,

    I answer that, As stated above, man's preparation for grace is from God, as Mover, and from the free-will, as moved. Hence the preparation may be looked at in two ways: first, as it is from free-will, and thus there is no necessity that it should obtain grace, since the gift of grace exceeds every preparation of human power. But it may be considered, secondly, as it is from God the Mover, and thus it has a necessity---not indeed of coercion, but of infallibility---as regards what it is ordained to by God, since God's intention CANNOT FAIL, according to the saying of Augustine in his book on the Predestination of the Saints (De Dono Persev. xiv) that
    "by God's good gifts whoever is liberated, is most certainly liberated." Hence if God intends, while moving, that the one whose heart He moves should attain to grace, he will INFALLIBLY attain to it, according to Jn. 6:45: "Every one that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned, cometh to Me."
    ~ Summa, I, Q-112, A-3, "Whether Grace is necessarily given"


    Once again, your baseless accusation is refuted.


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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Theophilus on Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:15 pm

    Yidda wrote:

    No. greatly misunderstood or intentionally.

    Mere accusations don't prove anything.
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Yidda on Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:16 pm

    Theophilus wrote:

    Well, that's a natural response from people who have absolutely NO IDEA on what St. Augustine and St. Thomas really believed. Thomists were also accused of Calvinism by Molinists, so I understand very well why do you react that way. In that case I suggest you to read this article by Jimmy Akin entitled "A Tiptoe Through TULIP", which exposes the similarities of Calvin's theology with the Thomist and Augustinian, and of course its heresies,

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm

    As to your question "where in it it say God controls one's own freewill?" - It seems to me that you didn't even read the quoted passages from St. Augustine. St. Augustine, as I myself do, maintained "free will" and "God's Sovereignty over man's will". He said, "it is we that will when we will" - which pertains to "free will"; then adds, "but it is He who makes us will" - which pertains to God's lordship over our free will. In the second quote he said, "God works in the hearts of men TO INCLINE their wills wherever he pleases, whether to good deeds according to His mercy, or to evil after their own deserts". Isn't this an explicit statement of affirmation that God controls our wills, whether to good or to evil? Do you still have to capriciously look for the verbatim "control" when there is a more direct term used in place of "control" which is "to incline... wherever he pleases"?

    I have more to show you. Read on:

    • I think I have now discussed the point fully enough in opposition to those who vehemently oppose the grace of God, by which, however, the human will is not taken away, but changed from bad to good, and assisted when it is good. I think, too, that I have so discussed the subject, that it is not so much I myself as the inspired Scripture which has spoken to you, in the clearest testimonies of truth; and if this divine record be looked into carefully, it shows us that not only men's good wills, which God Himself converts from bad ones, and, when converted by Him, directs to good actions and to eternal life, but also those which follow the world are so entirely at the disposal of God, that He turns them wherever He wills, and whenever He wills,— to bestow kindness on some, and to heap punishment on others, as He Himself judges right by a counsel most secret to Himself, indeed, but beyond all doubt most righteous. ~ St. Augustine, On Grace and Free Will, Ch. 41 [XX]
    Do we have "free will"? St. Augustine's answer would be YES. But St. Augustine also taught that God is Sovereign (btw, Sovereignty always implies "control") over man's free will. "Not only men's good wills... but also those which follow the world are SO ENTIRELY AT THE DISPOSAL OF GOD, that HE TURNS THEM WHEREVER HE WILLS, and WHEREVER HE WILLS". Do you even believe this? No. But I do. Therefore, it is not me who contradicts the fathers, IT IS YOU.

    so where is the refutation now? given that you change your stand. I thought my statement is refuted? and pls, do not give me contradicting stand coming from you? I doubt ,You even doesnt know what is freewill and grace is. Your just simply misquoting the writings of the saints without even understanding what they say, if you do you can put in your own words what their really saying.
    Your saying now God is in control of our freewill. Do you mean to say now those foredoomed lost their freewill?
    God controls lost freewill, which is which God control freewill but there is still freewill?


    and pleased do not evade my question on the unborn.
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Theophilus on Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:28 pm

    Yidda wrote:

    It is clear that it is inconsistent with the theology of Aquinas and Agustin read again ....please

    As clear as the sun too : permit to fall is simply permit to sin (it is
    man's action Is it not?)
    , God does not take away free-will.

    In your Augustianism "other words, the divine abandonment leaving those that are not elected on their own free will". Look God is the damnator.The creatures simply fulfilled the damnation prepared for them by the Damnator God from Eternity.

    Is that thesame?

    There is no contention that God permits some to fall away according to His reprobation, but St. Thomas never said that the cause of reprobation is man's "free will" or his turning away. Rather, the father made it clear (from the same section of the exposition on his Summa) that Reprobation IS THE CAUSE OF GOD'S ABANDONMENT (i.e. His depriving them of the infallible Grace unto Salvation); guilt then proceeds from the "free will" of the person who is reprobated and DESERTED BY GRACE. Why do you keep on denying and ignoring this? You keep on quoting him out-of-context without regarding the rest of His explanations which are essentially inter-connected to each other.

    • Reply to Objection 2:
      Reprobation differs in its causality from predestination. This latter is the cause both of what is expected in the future life by the predestined---namely, glory---and of what is received in this life---namely, grace. Reprobation, however, is not the cause of what is in the present---namely, sin; but it is the cause of abandonment by God. It is the cause, however, of what is assigned in the future---namely, eternal punishment. But guilt proceeds from the free-will of the person who is reprobated and DESERTED by grace.
      In this way, the word of the prophet is true---namely, "Destruction is thy own, O Israel."


    • Reply to Objection 3: Reprobation by God does not take anything away from the power of the person reprobated. Hence, when it is said THAT THE REPROBATE CANNOT OBTAIN GRACE, this must not be understood as implying absolute impossibility: but only conditional impossibility: as was said above, that the predestined must necessarily be saved; yet a conditional necessity, which does not do away with the liberty of choice.Whence, although anyone reprobated by God cannot acquire grace, nevertheless that he falls into this or that particular sin comes from the use of his free-will. Hence it is rightly imputed to him as guilt.
    In this sense must we understand St. Thomas when he said God permits some to fall away. It is because he abandons them, and his abandonment is the effect of Reprobation!
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Yidda on Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:38 pm

    and pls. do not answer me with the words of St. Tomas Aquinas or St. Agustin.

    They are replying an objection and addressing the subject specifically. otherwise just copypaste the whole summa or the whole book here.

    when you heard me say freewill , hastily you quoted their writings as if my own statement is the one their addressing. You challenge me a while ago. I accept it but use your own words.

    if you like I will answer your post too with copy paste. like fundamentalist does. verse vs verse,

    and plain question can be answered plainly is it not? if there is a need to quote quote.
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