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    Do you believe in Predestination?

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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Theophilus on Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:39 pm

    Yidda wrote:

    so where is the refutation now? given that you change your stand.
    Who told you that I changed my stand?

    I thought my statement is refuted? and pls, do not give me contradicting stand coming from you?
    Yes, you have been refuted in this thread many times.
    It's just that you are not honest enough to admit it...

    I doubt ,You even doesnt know what is freewill and grace is.
    Haven't I already given to you my position on "free will" with matching passages from the fathers? Whooa... I'm starting to get tired of explaining the same thing again and again... Please be honest with me: Do you even read my post? Or you just simply shoot gunfires to every direction without even having a certain target?

    Your just simply misquoting the writings of the saints without even understanding what they say, if you do you can put in your own words what their really saying. Your saying now God is in control of our freewill. Do you mean to say now those foredoomed lost their freewill?
    God controls lost freewill, which is which God control freewill but there is still freewill?

    and pleased do not evade my question on the unborn.
    Is that all you can do, bro? Deny, ignore, and hope it goes away? Oh c'mon... We all know that mere accusations won't prove anything. I need solid arguments and refutations. Passages from the fathers will also do.

    Anyway, it wasn't me who said that God inclines the will of His creatures wherever and whenever He pleases, it was St. Augustine. If you
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Yidda on Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:43 pm

    Theophilus wrote:

    There is no contention that God permits some to fall away according to His reprobation, but St. Thomas never said that the cause of reprobation is man's "free will" or his turning away. Rather, the father made it clear (from the same section of the exposition on his Summa) that Reprobation IS THE CAUSE OF GOD'S ABANDONMENT (i.e. His depriving them of the infallible Grace unto Salvation); guilt then proceeds from the "free will" of the person who is reprobated and DESERTED BY GRACE. Why do you keep on denying and ignoring this? You keep on quoting him out-of-context without regarding the rest of His explanations which are essentially inter-connected to each other.

    • Reply to Objection 2:
      Reprobation differs in its causality from predestination. This latter is the cause both of what is expected in the future life by the predestined---namely, glory---and of what is received in this life---namely, grace. Reprobation, however, is not the cause of what is in the present---namely, sin; but it is the cause of abandonment by God. It is the cause, however, of what is assigned in the future---namely, eternal punishment. But guilt proceeds from the free-will of the person who is reprobated and DESERTED by grace.
      In this way, the word of the prophet is true---namely, "Destruction is thy own, O Israel."


    • Reply to Objection 3: Reprobation by God does not take anything away from the power of the person reprobated. Hence, when it is said THAT THE REPROBATE CANNOT OBTAIN GRACE, this must not be understood as implying absolute impossibility: but only conditional impossibility: as was said above, that the predestined must necessarily be saved; yet a conditional necessity, which does not do away with the liberty of choice.Whence, although anyone reprobated by God cannot acquire grace, nevertheless that he falls into this or that particular sin comes from the use of his free-will. Hence it is rightly imputed to him as guilt.
    In this sense must we understand St. Thomas when he said God permits some to fall away. It is because he abandons them, and his abandonment is the effect of Reprobation!
    It is clear that it is inconsistent with the theology of Aquinas and Agustin read again ....please

    As clear as the sun too : permit to fall is simply permit to sin (it is
    man's action Is it not?)
    , God does not take away free-will.

    In your Augustianism "other words, the divine abandonment leaving those that are not elected on their own free will". Look God is the damnator.The creatures simply fulfilled the damnation prepared for them by the Damnator God from Eternity.

    Is that thesame?


    my goodness look being abandoned is God's action. That is why "to permit" to choose, permit to commit sin... is man's action. This is the stand of Aquinas and Augustin. Let the readre see this otherwise , the thread will flood by this repetition.
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Yidda on Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:51 pm

    Theophilus wrote:
    Who told you that I changed my stand?


    Yes, you have been refuted in this thread many times.
    It's just that you are not honest enough to admit it...


    Haven't I already given to you my position on "free will" with matching passages from the fathers? Whooa... I'm starting to get tired of explaining the same thing again and again... Please be honest with me: Do you even read my post? Or you just simply shoot gunfires to every direction without even having a certain target?


    Is that all you can do, bro? Deny, ignore, and hope it goes away? Oh c'mon... We all know that mere accusations won't prove anything. I need solid arguments and refutations. Passages from the fathers will also do.

    Anyway, it wasn't me who said that God inclines the will of His creatures wherever and whenever He pleases, it was St. Augustine. If you

    then state in your own word your stand and your objection to my post, the problem with you I post my stand with my own words. then you say it is refuted by St. Agustin by quoting the writings, Lucky me! the writings of St. Agustin was made and address to refute my post. This absurd. Your using the objection of Aquinas are they fit and intended to refute my post? or Aquinas writes in response to the objection in his Summa. Please consider this.
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Yidda on Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:55 am

    Theophilus wrote:
    Again, I agree. But how can we ever cooperate if our will is marred by Sin and thus avails for nothing except to Sin unless effectually assisted by the divine grace? "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him" (Jn. 6:65). Therefore, we cooperate in God's grace, because an enabling grace is first given to us.
    CANON 8. If anyone maintains that some are able to come to the grace of baptism by mercy but others through free will, which has manifestly been corrupted in all those who have been born after the transgression of the first man, it is proof that he has no place in the true faith. For he denies that the free will of all men has been weakened through the sin of the first man, or at least holds that it has been affected in such a way that they have still the ability to seek the mystery of eternal salvation by themselves without the revelation of God. The Lord himself shows how contradictory this is by declaring that no one is able to come to him “unless the Father who sent me draws him” (John 6:44), as he also says to Peter, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 16:17), and as the Apostle says, “No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit” (1 Cor. 12:3).

    This eighth Canon teaches that freewill has been corrupted and weakened by original sin. It also teaches (along with the other Canons of this Council) that God's grace is required for every good act of the human person, especially the act of seeking eternal salvation. Canon 9 adds: “…for as often as we do good, God is at work in us and with us, in order that we may do so.”

    CANON 13. Concerning the restoration of free will. The freedom of will that was destroyed in the first man can be restored only by the grace of baptism, for what is lost can be returned only by the one who was able to give it. Hence the Truth itself declares: “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed” (John 8:36).

    This thirteenth Canon teaches that the loss of sanctifying grace (due to original sin) “destroyed” freewill. It is not that freewill ceases to exist without sanctifying grace, but rather that freewill is corrupted and weakened by the loss of sanctifying grace due to original sin. The word “destroyed,” in this case, means damaged, but not obliterated.

    Theophilus wrote:
    While I agree with you that it is not unfair and arbitrary, I would insist that it is inexplicable. Augustine, whenever asked why God has elected only some to salvation and not all, he always respond like this:

    But why He delivers one rather than another—"His judgments are unsearchable, and His ways past finding out." (Romans 11:33) For it is better in this case for us to hear or to say, "O man, who are you that
    repliest against God?" (Romans 9:20) than to dare to speak as if we could know what He has chosen to be kept secret. Since, moreover, He could not will anything unrighteous.
    ~ St. Augustine, On the Predestination of the Saints, Ch. 16

    It is, therefore, inexplicable. Moreover, in the last sentence of the the same passage he said: "Since, moreover, He could not will anything unrighteous" - therefore, it is also not unfair or unjust.
    take note on your bolden sentence above.

    Now again it is important you would look closely on their writings below:

    "Thus as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it is likewise is part of the providence To PERMIT some To Fall away from that end; this is called REPROBATION."

    The position of St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas are in respectful of the freewill of man. God simply gives permission to fall away (to permit). But your God does not permit... Falling away instead.

    how can you reconcile "righteous" when you attribute to man and to God the doom of his creature? That God is damnator. by reading again your stand Theophilus said: the divine abandonment leaving those that are not elected on their own free will"
    I wonder why you ignore the stand of St. Thomas and St. Augustin and insisting this "Divine abandonment" and still claim God is righteous. Your out of context in regards to their writing.

    moreover: read the 2 below(i separate for easy reading)which you are mixing up.
    Summa Theologiae Ia, Q. 23, Art. 8 [Christian Classics edition, p. 133]:

    "Wherefore we must say otherwise that in predestination two things are to be considered - namely, 1.The Divine Preordination; and its 2.Effects. As regards the 1. former, in no possible way can predestination be furthered by the prayers of the saints. For it is not due to their prayers that anyone is predestined by God.

    ~ the first Divine Preordination - free will doesn't affect whether or not one is predestined. The Elect in Heaven are beyond Time.

    ~ and the latter.
    As Regards the latter,2. predestination is sad to be HELPED BY THE PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS, and by other GOOD WORKS... whether it be one's own prayers, or those of another, or other GOOD WORKS, and such like, without which one would not attain to salvation."

    Theophilus wrote:
    Are you saying that God's Predestination (with regards to who will be saved) is founded upon God's foresight of what men would choose/do?

    read the two above of the summa.

    Theophilus wrote:
    I agree with you that we have "free will", but for me - as an Augustinian - our every will, whether good or bad, is entirely at the disposal of God. In other words, while I don't deny "free will", I believe God is has absolute Sovereignty over mens' free will.

    God's knowledge does not control the choice of free will. How can you have freewill when it is controlled by God? that is why St. Tomas used the word " permit to Fall " permit to commit sin. Freewill is there.

    CANON 13. Concerning the restoration of free will. The freedom of will that was destroyed in the first man can be restored only by the grace of baptism, for what is lost can be returned only by the one who was able to give it. Hence the Truth itself declares: “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed” (John 8:36).

    This thirteenth Canon teaches that the loss of sanctifying grace (due to original sin) “destroyed” freewill. It is not that freewill ceases to exist without sanctifying grace, but rather that freewill is corrupted and weakened by the loss of sanctifying grace due to original sin. The word “destroyed,” in this case, means damaged, but not obliterated.
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

    Post by Yidda on Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:23 pm

    I need to add this for the reader.

    First, God Loves ALL MEN. This is contrary TO your position That GOD Elected ONLY Those whom HE wants to be SAVED AND DOOMED Others to damnation by IMMUTABLE DECREE FROM ALL AGES.

    Second, THE GOD OF ST. THOMAS ONLY REPROBATES... HE PERMITS THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE... But for YOU HE DOES NOT PERMIT... HE DOOMED TO DAMNATION BY IMMUTABLE DECREE FROM ETERNITY.

    THE GOD OF Augustianism(your version) AND your GOD HAS NO LOVE FOR "ALL" MEN. He Already DOOMED and DAMNED FROM ETERNITY SOULS EVEN BEFORE THEY HAVE COMMITTED THEIR SINS.

    Imagine prior to sin the HEARTLESS GOD of Theophilus WISHES SOULS TO BE DAMNED. THIS IS NOT THE BIBLICAL GOD:
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    Re: Do you believe in Predestination?

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