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Did God create evil/devil?

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:26 pm

MarcCatholic wrote:Oh my. I am not talking creation as the way God created things from his very own power. Kuya Jewel, we can create stuffs just like you create your on recipe, your own obra maestra, but it doesn't mean that you created those stuffs the way God created all things. So when you create evil things, just like CREATING evil thoughts in your mind, not only THINKING of those evil thoughts, then my point is not logically wrong. For example, you create a scenario in your mind how to kill a person, are you just thinking or beyond that (creating) since you yourself schemed a specific evil thought to kill a person? Thanks.

Again, you are very wrong marc.

Creating is different from thinking. You are capable of thinking but not creating. Whatever comes into your mind is but a thought not a creation. Try to see the definition of "thinking" and "creating" - a vast of difference.
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by MarcCatholic on Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:25 am

Kuya Jewel, I am not only talking about this creating stuff in the mind so as to go away with the limitations of you saying persons can't create evil. Oh my parang sinabi mo na din po na hindi gumagawa ng krimen ang mga tao but they just think of it and commit afterwards. You see this is just a semantic game. I don't understand why it's a big deal to you kuya Jewel. You didn't even answer my statement:

"Kuya Jewel, we can create stuffs just like you create your own recipe, your own obra maestra, but it doesn't mean that you created those stuffs the way God created all things. "


Here's my question. Do you create ideas kuya Jewel or not? Just like you want to have a birthday party for your wife? Do you only think of it? Of course you want something new but do you really just think of it? Now, is evil thought not bound for creation, not just a simple thought? Thanks.
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by sakundes on Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:04 am

There's no such thing as good or evil.. they are but perspectives we have developed to distinguish what is advantageous and what is not. what is evil to one person may be different from another.
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:18 am

vril wrote:

Don't worry about me, i'm never pissed at discussions. What i'm trying to say is try and be articulate as much as you can. If you try and look at your posts, you will see how stupid it was and illogical.

Ganun ba hindi ka pikon at illogical ang reasoning ko?

Yung sabihing hindi ka pikon ay sablay ka na agad. Kitang-kita sa poste mo ang tindi ng pagkapikon mo bro... lol!

Now, ipakita mo sakin kung saan ako naging illogical at gagamitin ko naman yang punto mo na yan para ipakitang ikaw actually ang illogical.



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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:26 am

MarcCatholic wrote:

I know that but is he really stupid? Do you know him? What if someone said that to you and of course you burst in anger because that's not true yet the person still says, it's the truth and it hurts? Kudos fred for staying your cool. I hope you know being polite and decent is very different from being insolent and rude.

Marc,

Tama ka dyan. Ang taong nagsasabi ng mga ganyang salita sa kapatid niya ay ganyan din ang maririnig niya sa oras na siya ay huhusgahan na sa oras ng kanyang kamatayan, unless of course kung ihihingi niya ito ng tawad sa pinagkasalaan niya.

Sabi nga ni Jesus: "Whatever you do to the least fo your brethren you do it unto me."






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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:24 pm

Jewel wrote:

No you are not creating evil, you are merely thinking of it, and if you do your evil thought, you are doing evil, not creating evil. The reason is that you cant create anything from nothing, can you?

Are you supposing therefore that there is already evil in your mind before you think of it?

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:09 pm

fredms3 wrote:

Are you supposing therefore that there is already evil in your mind before you think of it?

No, I am supposing that every mind who has got free will is capable of thinking of evil not creating it because that is what mind is capable of, thinking, not creating. Creating in that sense means to bring into existence something which did not exist before, and no one is capable of doing that except God alone. You may say that "oh but such and such evil thought was not in my mind before, therefore I might have created it myself". I say that such evil thought have already existed elsewhere but you just did not have think of it.

here is the test:

Give an example of an evil thought that you can think of which is not yet in your mind, and also cant be found elsewhere.

Waiting....


Thanks
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:21 pm

MarcCatholic wrote:Kuya Jewel, I am not only talking about this creating stuff in the mind so as to go away with the limitations of you saying persons can't create evil. Oh my parang sinabi mo na din po na hindi gumagawa ng krimen ang mga tao but they just think of it and commit afterwards. You see this is just a semantic game. I don't understand why it's a big deal to you kuya Jewel. You didn't even answer my statement:

"Kuya Jewel, we can create stuffs just like you create your own recipe, your own obra maestra, but it doesn't mean that you created those stuffs the way God created all things. "


Here's my question. Do you create ideas kuya Jewel or not? Just like you want to have a birthday party for your wife? Do you only think of it? Of course you want something new but do you really just think of it? Now, is evil thought not bound for creation, not just a simple thought? Thanks.

BTW, the approval of fred to your reply doesnt prove anything because you are on the same side.

Here's my reply:


Im not limiting myself or yourself, it is just a fact that we are finite and limited beings, that's the bottom line there. If you wanna pretend that you are unlimited then go ahead, but who would agree with you?

What people are capable of is thinking and doing evil - Sometimes you may think of evil but you dont do it, and sometimes you may think of evil and you do it - That is true also with thinking good and doing good.

How would say that you created something that already have existed? are you telling me that the evil that you may think of is a new evil? that's ludicrous marc.

answer to your question:

No, I cant create ideas, but I am capable of thinking of ideas. When you formulate an idea, that doesnt mean that that idea didnt exist before. You merely collected, gathered bits and pieces of ideas, combined them and you think it is a new idea which you created hehhehe.

Now, here is my challenge:

Give me an example of an evil thought which you can think of which doesnt exist in your mind and doesnt exist elsewhere. I would call that new evil if such thing does exist.


Thanks
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:07 pm

Jewel wrote:

No, I am supposing that every mind who has got free will is capable of thinking of evil not creating it because that is what mind is capable of, thinking, not creating. Creating in that sense means to bring into existence something which did not exist before, and no one is capable of doing that except God alone. You may say that "oh but such and such evil thought was not in my mind before, therefore I might have created it myself". I say that such evil thought have already existed elsewhere but you just did not have think of it.

here is the test:

Give an example of an evil thought that you can think of which is not yet in your mind, and also cant be found elsewhere.

Waiting....


Thanks

Then you have a problem with your definition of create/creation. When i say i would create a table for myself, does it mean that the word 'create' is not applicable because someone had already produced it?

Evil thought that i can create which is not yet in my mind (but i will not do at all cost) ----- Ang murahin si God ----

On the issue that 'it cannot be found elsewhere' ---- Well, you're query just proved that there was indeed the first mortal who did that.



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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:28 pm

fredms3 wrote:

Then you have a problem with your definition of create/creation. When i say i would create a table for myself, does it mean that the word 'create' is not applicable because someone had already produced it?

Hehehhe, watta false analogy. How would you compare an abstract stuff to a physical one, nonsense. False dilemma.

Moreover, even if I have to ride with your false dilemma, I still dont and cant agree with your terminology. No cant create a table, what you can do is make a table because the materials that you'll be using are already existing. so what you will be doing is to assemble those materials in a form of a table.

Here is a test: Create a table in which its materials are yet to exist - we'll how great creator you are, you cant even create that in your mind i bet
Very Happy

Evil thought that i can create which is not yet in my mind (but i will not do at all cost) ----- Ang murahin si God ----

tsadanggggg! see, you just prove me correct. Murahin mo man si God is not a new evil, it's an old evil fred pig

On the issue that 'it cannot be found elsewhere' ---- Well, you're query just proved that there was indeed the first mortal who did that.


doing it, yes, in fact, it is satan who first did it. However, he did not create it, God created it as an option. Had God did not create evil as one of the options, Satan would never have done any evil because there is no evil thing for him to think of in the first place, right?

Would you be able to make mistakes in a multiple choice exam if all the options that the teacher put are all correct choices? - that's the crux of the matter fred hehehehe king

Example;

Q- Choose the correct answer: Jesus Christ was/is

a. Son of Mary
b. Born Miraculously (without human father)
c. Worshiped as God by the Catholics (trinitarians)

Ans:_________________

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:57 pm

Jewel wrote:

Hehehhe, watta false analogy. How would you compare an abstract stuff to a physical one, nonsense. False dilemma.

Moreover, even if I have to ride with your false dilemma, I still dont and cant agree with your terminology. No cant create a table, what you can do is make a table because the materials that you'll be using are already existing. so what you will be doing is to assemble those materials in a form of a table.

Here is a test: Create a table in which its materials are yet to exist - we'll how great creator you are, you cant even create that in your mind i bet
Very Happy

False dilemma? Ohh...sorry to tell you but your analogy failed you again here. Remember everything that we do is being processed in the mind and manifested in our action.

Can you provide me the meaning of 'create' that says making something out of nothing as what God had done. I'l be waiting..........

Now, evil thoughts created in our minds has the same principle as the thoughts you create in trying to make/create a table.

You just cannot accept the terminology because that will prove you wrong, but will reverse the reality? ----- Not at all.


Jewel wrote:

tsadanggggg! see, you just prove me correct. Murahin mo man si God is not a new evil, it's an old evil fred pig



doing it, yes, in fact, it is satan who first did it. However, he did not create it, God created it as an option. Had God did not create evil as one of the options, Satan would never have done any evil because there is no evil thing for him to think of in the first place, right?

Would you be able to make mistakes in a multiple choice exam if all the options that the teacher put are all correct choices? - that's the crux of the matter fred hehehehe king

Example;

Q- Choose the correct answer: Jesus Christ was/is

a. Son of Mary
b. Born Miraculously (without human father)
c. Worshiped as God by the Catholics (trinitarians)

Ans:_________________


Sino ba ang nagsabi na bago yan sa mundong ito? Malinaw ang sinabi ko wala pa sa utak ko....i hope you get the point there. I have yet to create/make/delve that evil thoughts into my mind, and consent on that para ma-consummate ang sin na yan, otherwise, bago pa rin sa akin yan.

There you are, you're the one agreeing with me.. lol! Exactly, satan did it but first created that evil thoughts and consented ultimately.

What God created is the gift of freewill --- choosing to obey or not.

Wrong because your telling me this: There is evil before satan?

Now, prove that to me na meron ng satanas bago pa kay Lucifer?






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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:27 pm

fredms3 wrote:

False dilemma? Ohh...sorry to tell you but your analogy failed you again here. Remember everything that we do is being processed in the mind and manifested in our action.

Can you provide me the meaning of 'create' that says making something out of nothing as what God had done. I'l be waiting..........

Now, evil thoughts created in our minds has the same principle as the thoughts you create in trying to make/create a table.

You just cannot accept the terminology because that will prove you wrong, but will reverse the reality? ----- Not at all.

I dont think so. The terminology fits the proper belief that there is only one creator, and that is God, not a mere man whom the bible called a maggot. You better cease on thinking that you are capable of creating something out of nothing because that is a false delusion, you cant even create even a wing of a mosquito.

Coming to your request;

God creates something out of nothing; in the beginning, there was nothing but God, and then God created everything, and everything means everything.

You did not answer my question/demand - are the materials that you'll be using in making a table yet to exist or already have existed?


Sino ba ang nagsabi na bago yan sa mundong ito? Malinaw ang sinabi ko wala pa sa utak ko....i hope you get the point there. I have yet to create/make/delve that evil thoughts into my mind, and consent on that para ma-consummate ang sin na yan, otherwise, bago pa rin sa akin yan.

heheheh see, tama nga ang sabi ko kasi sumang-ayon ka. The evil thought that you have tho new to your mind is actually existing elsewhere, so you are not the one who created it because logically speaking, you cant call something to be your own creation if it already exist even before you existed heheheh


There you are, you're the one agreeing with me.. lol! Exactly, satan did it but first created that evil thoughts and consented ultimately.

What God created is the gift of freewill --- choosing to obey or not.

Wrong because your telling me this: There is evil before satan?


tsadanggggg!! see, huli ka sa sarili mong statement - What do you mean by "choosing not to obey" as part of free will, is it good or is it evil??

Now, prove that to me na meron ng satanas bago pa kay Lucifer?

twewww! out of da blue hehhehe

Sino ba maysabi na may satanas na bago pa kay lucifer? Ang sinabi ko, before satan did evil, God has already made evil as an option to do. If you obey God, that is good, and if you disobey God, that is evil - so who created the options of obeying and disobeying, God or satan?? hehhehe




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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by MarcCatholic on Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:42 pm

You know guys this dialogue will not push through if we can't settle with the premise that the "creation" we do is not the same with the creation God did from nothing. Of course, we can create Kuya Jewel but it doesn't mean that it was done from nothing. We create arts. The term here in creation surpasses the term that we only make because it might be, perhaps, the kind of creation that we brought into the public and has caused great effect in their lives. Creation of humans from nothing is ridiculous indeed. That's why biomes are not as good as the natural environment. New ideas or not is not my cup of tea about creation. What I mean is that we still create ideas and I just emphasized it into what if a new idea comes in. Ok what if I ride to your case, new evil thought? I can do it I guess. What if I kill a person with my fingernail plus pouring acid to his stomach, etc for a year? Someone did that already? None.


Ok here's the other situation Kuya Jewel. What if your CEO asked you to "create" a webpage that is very unique and different since you are a very well known programmer? Thanks. Don't tell me you'll just make it. You're CEO commands you to create, meaning of higher degree.
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:57 am

Jewel wrote:

I dont think so. The terminology fits the proper belief that there is only one creator, and that is God, not a mere man whom the bible called a maggot. You better cease on thinking that you are capable of creating something out of nothing because that is a false delusion, you cant even create even a wing of a mosquito.

Coming to your request;

God creates something out of nothing; in the beginning, there was nothing but God, and then God created everything, and everything means everything.

You did not answer my question/demand - are the materials that you'll be using in making a table yet to exist or already have existed?

So you don't believe that you are procreator?

Your limitation on the word 'create' creates a big problem on how you assess reality. I know about the creation history, no problem for i agree with that. What i'm asking you is to give me a definition from other source (e.g dictionary, etc.) to support your position that the word 'create' is limited to God's act no more no less.

Parts exist but not the table, you have to act on it to create or make one. --- Again, your problem on how you limit the word 'create'.


[quote="Jewel"]e]Sino ba ang nagsabi na bago yan sa mundong ito? Malinaw ang sinabi ko wala pa sa utak ko....i hope you get the point there. I have yet to create/make/delve that evil thoughts into my mind, and consent on that para ma-consummate ang sin na yan, otherwise, bago pa rin sa akin yan.



Wrong analysis. Again, your limitation of the word 'create' gives you a very big logical problem.

Pinalalabas mo na ang inisip kong mga kasalanan ay hindi dapat isisi sa akin dahil hindi naman ako ang nag create dyan. Si God ang dapat sisihin sa lahat --- yan ang napalaking problema ng limitation mo sa word na 'create'.







Uhmmm...mukhang nalilito ka na ah...freewill -- to obey or not --- ganyan kasimple yun bro.



Uhmmm...your post shows your siding with Ateo that God has evil in Himself... lol!

Created the options of evil? Well, before i answer you, show to me the verse to that effect which also mean God created evil.


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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:23 am

Jewel wrote:

I dont think so. The terminology fits the proper belief that there is only one creator, and that is God, not a mere man whom the bible called a maggot. You better cease on thinking that you are capable of creating something out of nothing because that is a false delusion, you cant even create even a wing of a mosquito.

Coming to your request;

God creates something out of nothing; in the beginning, there was nothing but God, and then God created everything, and everything means everything.

You did not answer my question/demand - are the materials that you'll be using in making a table yet to exist or already have existed?

heheheh see, tama nga ang sabi ko kasi sumang-ayon ka. The evil thought that you have tho new to your mind is actually existing elsewhere, so you are not the one who created it because logically speaking, you cant call something to be your own creation if it already exist even before you existed heheheh

So you don't believe that you are procreator?

Your limitation on the word 'create' creates a big problem on how you assess reality. I know about the creation history, no problem for i agree with that. What i'm asking you is to give me a definition from other source (e.g dictionary, etc.) to support your position that the word 'create' is limited to God's act no more no less.

Parts exist but not the table, you have to act on it to create or make one. --- Again, your problem on how you limit the word 'create'.


tsadanggggg!! see, huli ka sa sarili mong statement - What do you mean by "choosing not to obey" as part of free will, is it good or is it evil??

Uhmmm...mukhang nalilito ka na ah...freewill -- to obey or not --- ganyan kasimple yun bro.

twewww! out of da blue hehhehe

Sino ba maysabi na may satanas na bago pa kay lucifer? Ang sinabi ko, before satan did evil, God has already made evil as an option to do. If you obey God, that is good, and if you disobey God, that is evil - so who created the options of obeying and disobeying, God or satan?? hehhehe

Uhmmm...your post shows your siding with Ateo that God has evil in Himself...

Created the options of evil? Well, before i answer you, show to me the verse to that effect which also mean God created evil.

-------

Sorry for the double post. Nagkagulo ang posting ko dahil log-out na pala ako nung nag-send ako ng message for posting Very Happy

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:26 am

MarcCatholic wrote:You know guys this dialogue will not push through if we can't settle with the premise that the "creation" we do is not the same with the creation God did from nothing. Of course, we can create Kuya Jewel but it doesn't mean that it was done from nothing. We create arts. The term here in creation surpasses the term that we only make because it might be, perhaps, the kind of creation that we brought into the public and has caused great effect in their lives. Creation of humans from nothing is ridiculous indeed. That's why biomes are not as good as the natural environment. New ideas or not is not my cup of tea about creation. What I mean is that we still create ideas and I just emphasized it into what if a new idea comes in. Ok what if I ride to your case, new evil thought? I can do it I guess. What if I kill a person with my fingernail plus pouring acid to his stomach, etc for a year? Someone did that already? None.


Ok here's the other situation Kuya Jewel. What if your CEO asked you to "create" a webpage that is very unique and different since you are a very well known programmer? Thanks. Don't tell me you'll just make it. You're CEO commands you to create, meaning of higher degree.

Yan na Marc ang problema ni Jewel kaya ganyan ang reasoning niya. Very Happy

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:20 am

ay naku, kampihan pa kayong dalawa eh pareho naman kayo katoliks, what doest it prove diba?

Ganito ang point dyan, nererelate nyo kasi ang creation ng abstract stuff sa mga physical stuff kaya sumasabit ang mga example nyo. Ang matindi nyan unti-unti lang ina-accept ni marc na hindi nga sya creator like God pero he can create something hehehe, ano yan pseudo creator?
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by MarcCatholic on Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:36 am

Kuya Jewel, why would you keep repeating on the idea that we create out of nothing since from the beginning we don't believe on that? We can't create even a wing of a mosquito! God alone can do those things since He is the creator of all things. You see, it's like we are journeying in the ocean and you in the mountains. We can't meet with our definition. You think that when people create, it automatically bypasses and steals the nature of God. No. You're the one trying to set the misconception here kuya Jewel. We can create and God will not be against that since He knows for sure He's the source all of these. We are not assurping his place as the creator. When you're in the field of arts, you'll not meet problems when you're told to create an obra maestra since they're simply saying you make something extremely new and you're doing it with available resources plus your mind. Now, you'll answer them sorry but only stick to the term MAKE and that's it. I wonder what would be there reaction. "Did I say something different?, they say." Well, you're stating the obvious kuya.
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by MarcCatholic on Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:39 am

Kuya, it's not kampihan because I am a Catholic. It's because that's how I believe it. Also, as Catholic, I believe humans are procreators. Thanks.
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:59 am

fredms3 wrote:

[color=blue]So you don't believe that you are procreator?

Nawawala na yata sa tuno to, creator ang pinag-uusapan tapos napunta sa procreatror hehhehe

fredms3 wrote:

[color=blue][b]Your limitation on the word 'create' creates a big problem on how you assess reality. I know about the creation history, no problem for i agree with that. What i'm asking you is to give me a definition from other source (e.g dictionary, etc.) to support your position that the word 'create' is limited to God's act no more no less.

Exactly, create is limited to God' act only when it comes to abstract stuff. Just like love, can you create love, No! wHY? because God has already created it - what you are capable of is feel it. Just like evil it is an abstract stuff, you cant create it because it is already existing even before your existence - It would be extremely illogical to say that the creation preceded its creator hehehe

fredms3 wrote:

[b]Parts exist but not the table, you have to act on it to create or make one. --- Again, your problem on how you limit the word 'create'.

See, what you are doing is assembling the parts putting them together to form a table - this is why your analogy failed because you are comparing the abstract stuff to the physical ones. How is the question on the creation of evil be comparable to a making of a table ? hehhehe

Look, if something is new to you, that doesnt mean that since you just think of it now then you could claim to be it's creator.

If you claim that you can create evil, then by the same token you can create good too, and then you can create love, loneliness, happiness, ect. You must be God guys hhehehe


fredms3 wrote:
e]Sino ba ang nagsabi na bago yan sa mundong ito? Malinaw ang sinabi ko wala pa sa utak ko....i hope you get the point there. I have yet to create/make/delve that evil thoughts into my mind, and consent on that para ma-consummate ang sin na yan, otherwise, bago pa rin sa akin yan.

Kaya nga eh, hindi porket bago lang yan sa utak mo eh ikaw na ang creator nyan. Halimbawa, pinagawa ng teacher ang isang student ng saying; ang naisip ng student ay "ang hindi magmahal sa sariling wika ay higit pa ang amoy sa mabahong isda" - Sabi ng teacher - galing kay Jose rizal yan, ang sabi ko yung bago- ang sagot ng bata: pero maam, ayon kay kuya fred ako ang creator nyan kasi di ko yan alam noon, bago lang yan sa utak ko!

halerrr saang logic naman yan?



fredms3 wrote:
e]Pinalalabas mo na ang inisip kong mga kasalanan ay hindi dapat isisi sa akin dahil hindi naman ako ang nag create dyan. Si God ang dapat sisihin sa lahat --- yan ang napalaking problema ng limitation mo sa word na 'create'.

Mali ka na naman fred;

hindi ka sisishin kong nakaisip ka lang ng evil kung hindi mo naman ito isinasagawa. tulad ng multiple choice exam, hindi ka sisishin kung babasahin mo yung mga incorrect options; sisisihin ka lang kung pipiliin mo ang alin man sa mga incorrect options dahil hindi yon ang tamang sagot.

Natural lang na makaisip ka ng evil kasi dyan made-distinguish ang good at evil - kung hindi ka makakaisip ng evil at puro nalang good, nasaan pa ang options mo ngayon??? hehehhehe







fredms3 wrote:
Uhmmm...mukhang nalilito ka na ah...freewill -- to obey or not --- ganyan kasimple yun bro.

Yun na nga eh, yung "not to obey" if you do that is it good or evil?? simple lang naman ang tanong, bakit iniiwasan ? hehehe



fredms3 wrote:
[color=blue]Uhmmm...your post shows your siding with Ateo that God has evil in Himself...

No, my point is crystal clear, God has no evil in Himself because evil is just part of his creation, and the creator is/must be different from the creation - no strawman okay?

fredms3 wrote:
[b]Created the options of evil? Well, before i answer you, show to me the verse to that effect which also mean God created evil.


What verse are you talking about? I already have told you that in the beginning there was nothing but God alone - nothing means nothing okay? Then God created everything, that includes good and evil because everything means everything.

That's it. So answer my question now alien
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:03 am

MarcCatholic wrote:Kuya, it's not kampihan because I am a Catholic. It's because that's how I believe it. Also, as Catholic, I believe humans are procreators. Thanks.

ang problema kasi dyan, kangaroo approach ang style nyo, jumping here and there kung nahuhuli hehhee

from the topic on the creation of evil, napunta sa creation of table, webpage ect. tapos from the topic on creator, heto lumundag na naman sa procreator - papano naman mase-settle ang proper contextual definition nyan?? hehhehe

stick to the topic, no hit-and-run Suspect
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by MarcCatholic on Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:10 am

Kuya Jewel I am just giving examples wherein creation is available to refute your stand that creation is due to God alone. We go outside evil so I might enlighten you. And now you tell me that I'm going elsewhere so as to mislead the readers is not fair. I am still on the topic. We have to settle on the definition of creation. Let me ask you, in your whole life you can't create anything? Yes, I believe procreation but okay let's not talk about that. We go back, we can create evil things in mind, not just by thinking it. I gave you an example right when you ask me to give a specific situation that an evil is not yet being committed. I told you one already but it's not my cup of tea either the thought evil existed already or not. It's the creation of it in our mind. Thanks.
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by MarcCatholic on Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:23 am

"If you claim that you can create evil, then by the same token you can create good too, and then you can create love, loneliness, happiness, ect. You must be God guys hhehehe"


Naku po kuya, yan ay isang matinding fallacy. Paano mo naman maikokonek yan na halimbawa e nag-create kami ng evil thought e automatic creator kami the rest of goodness? Haler si Satanas kaya ba niya yan? Hindi.


Kuya, hindi nga po namin sinasabi na halimbawa nag-create kami ng evil, not all evil, e kami na ang creator. The premise of creating something here is just like the intensity of making. Creation of all things is due to God alone.

"Give an example of an evil thought that you can think of which is not yet in your mind, and also cant be found elsewhere."


Kuya pinatos ko na ang sinabi mong to. Meron na akong halimbawa diyan nakita mo ba? Anyway, mamaya na ulit umaga na dito sa Pinas sleep pa ako. Ahehehe. Very Happy
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:53 am

Jewel wrote:

Nawawala na yata sa tuno to, creator ang pinag-uusapan tapos napunta sa procreatror hehhehe

Dahil sa limitation mo ng word na 'create' kaya problematic ka sa ganyang issue. Binigyan tayo ng Diyos ng kakayanan na mag-create, and one of the best example of this is ---- to make/create a human being.

Jewel wrote:

Exactly, create is limited to God' act only when it comes to abstract stuff. Just like love, can you create love, No! wHY? because God has already created it - what you are capable of is feel it. Just like evil it is an abstract stuff, you cant create it because it is already existing even before your existence - It would be extremely illogical to say that the creation preceded its creator hehehe

Again, the problem with 'create.' We can create evil and good thoughts in our minds. And our actions will show that.

Where's your definition of 'create' showing that it is limited to God alone no more no less.


Jewel wrote:


See, what you are doing is assembling the parts putting them together to form a table - this is why your analogy failed because you are comparing the abstract stuff to the physical ones. How is the question on the creation of evil be comparable to a making of a table ? hehhehe

Look, if something is new to you, that doesnt mean that since you just think of it now then you could claim to be it's creator.

If you claim that you can create evil, then by the same token you can create good too, and then you can create love, loneliness, happiness, ect. You must be God guys hhehehe

Same principle whether abstract or material one because everything is processed in our minds and manifested in our actions.

The bible confirms that those who follow God's commands are called gods. I don't know with your Holy Quran...

Can evil create good?



Jewel wrote:

Kaya nga eh, hindi porket bago lang yan sa utak mo eh ikaw na ang creator nyan. Halimbawa, pinagawa ng teacher ang isang student ng saying; ang naisip ng student ay "ang hindi magmahal sa sariling wika ay higit pa ang amoy sa mabahong isda" - Sabi ng teacher - galing kay Jose rizal yan, ang sabi ko yung bago- ang sagot ng bata: pero maam, ayon kay kuya fred ako ang creator nyan kasi di ko yan alam noon, bago lang yan sa utak ko!

halerrr saang logic naman yan?

Kung totoong hindi alam ng bata yan ay masasabi nating sa kanya nga galing but in reality hindi dahil meron ng tao na gumawa nyan at yan ay ipinaalam na nga ng titser sa kanya.

So hindi mo ba naisip na Rizal did create it ------ and therefore we can also create....
You are now agreeing with me.



Jewel wrote:


Mali ka na naman fred;

hindi ka sisishin kong nakaisip ka lang ng evil kung hindi mo naman ito isinasagawa. tulad ng multiple choice exam, hindi ka sisishin kung babasahin mo yung mga incorrect options; sisisihin ka lang kung pipiliin mo ang alin man sa mga incorrect options dahil hindi yon ang tamang sagot.

Natural lang na makaisip ka ng evil kasi dyan made-distinguish ang good at evil - kung hindi ka makakaisip ng evil at puro nalang good, nasaan pa ang options mo ngayon??? hehehhehe

Kahit hindi mo gawin basta nagconsent ka sa evil thoughts na yan ay kasalanan na. At tulad ng reasoning mo si God ang dapat sisihin dahil siya ang gumawa ng evil simpleng simple di ba?

Sino ngayon ang mali...lols..



Jewel wrote:


Yun na nga eh, yung "not to obey" if you do that is it good or evil?? simple lang naman ang tanong, bakit iniiwasan ? hehehe

It is not good but it's not evil (satan) as as you're trying to portray dahil sablay ang reasoning mo dyan.

Ang hindi ka sumunod sa utos ni God ay hindi good ----- that's starts 360 deg. turnaround of lucifer.

Pumasok lang ang kasalanan ng magrebelde na si lucifer.



Jewel wrote:

No, my point is crystal clear, God has no evil in Himself because evil is just part of his creation, and the creator is/must be different from the creation - no strawman okay?



What verse are you talking about? I already have told you that in the beginning there was nothing but God alone - nothing means nothing okay? Then God created everything, that includes good and evil because everything means everything.

That's it. So answer my question now alien

How can a God create evil if He has not that system in Himself. You can not give what you do not have...Paano mo bibigyan ng kendi ang anak mo kung ala kang kendi...see what your reasoning brings you.

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:13 pm

Dahil sa limitation mo ng word na 'create' kaya problematic ka sa ganyang issue. Binigyan tayo ng Diyos ng kakayanan na mag-create, and one of the best example of this is ---- to make/create a human being.

Naku patay tayo dyan, kaya mo pala mag-create ng human being, watta shock!!!

Sinasabi ko na nga ba eh, quote ng quote ng homonyms at inaakala na identical lang ang meanings hehehe

Hindi porke magkatunog ang pronounciation ay identical and meaning lalo na sa context fred - Procreate means reproduction, hindi creation hehehe

Human being pa kaya ang kaya mong gawin eh kahit pakpak ng langaw ay di mo kayang gawin hehehehe

Sablay na sablay talaga yan fred Razz


Again, the problem with 'create.' We can create evil and good thoughts in our minds. And our actions will show that.

Where's your definition of 'create' showing that it is limited to God alone no more no less
.


I still disagree because what you mind is capable of is thinking of ideas, consolidating ideas putting them together. As I said before, creating in this context is to bring something not existing in to existence. You cant call it your creation if it already have existed before. Evil already existed even before you were born, so how would you call it your creation, that a big sablay there.

Your ignorance of something doesnt mean that that something is not existing elsewhere - that's the bottom line there.



Same principle whether abstract or material one because everything is processed in our minds and manifested in our actions
.


That's the problem there because of the same reason; you cant call something to be your creation if it already have existed before you because the creator must have existed first before his creation.


The bible confirms that those who follow God's commands are called gods. I don't know with your Holy Quran...


I wont delve into the scriptures for now in order to narrow the discussion, because as soon I say something about your bible, the topic would be widen; I dont think that your bible is correct in calling those who follow God's commands to be gods (sometimes there are tricks in using a capital G, and small g for God). what is that small "g" for god, im sure it is not the same context and meaning as capital "G" God.


Can evil create good?


Funny question indeed. Is evil a creator? Of course not! Evil and good are not personalities my friend fred, so how did you even think to ask that question? Evil is a state of being not good hehehe


Kung totoong hindi alam ng bata yan ay masasabi nating sa kanya nga galing but in reality hindi dahil meron ng tao na gumawa nyan at yan ay ipinaalam na nga ng titser sa kanya.

So hindi mo ba naisip na Rizal did create it ------ and therefore we can also create....
You are now agreeing with me
.


Wrong because of the same reason; the creator must have existed before the creation, not the other way around. Did the saying exist before the child was born or not?


Kahit hindi mo gawin basta nagconsent ka sa evil thoughts na yan ay kasalanan na. At tulad ng reasoning mo si God ang dapat sisihin dahil siya ang gumawa ng evil simpleng simple di ba?

Sino ngayon ang mali...lols..

Mali ka parin fred, and you are twisting/adding something to the idea given. What I said is that if you think of evil and you did not do it, you cant be blame for that because that is part of your option (obey or disobey). Now if you say 'consenting' is another stuff added to mere thinking of it - in that case you will be blameworthy.

It is like saying that in the options of the question, you consented that the incorrect option should be the correct answer despite knowing that it is incorrect, even if you did not choose that answer, you are still wrong.

The correct position is that, in the options, I know that (b.) is the correct answer, while (a. & c.) are incorrect. I will not be blamed for thinking that (a.&c.) are incorrect. But if I did not choose (b.) and leave the question unanswered because I "consented" "supposed" that either (a. or c.) is the correct answer, then my answer is still wrong or incorrect



It is not good but it's not evil (satan) as as you're trying to portray dahil sablay ang reasoning mo dyan.

Ang hindi ka sumunod sa utos ni God ay hindi good ----- that's starts 360 deg. turnaround of lucifer.

Pumasok lang ang kasalanan ng magrebelde na si lucifer.

See, huli ka na, sabi mo "It is not good but it's not evil (satan)" hehehe. Disobeying God is not evil to you? wow, what kinda concept is that.

BTW fred, dont be confused with the words "evil" and "devil" because they are not the same, they are just homonyms. Evil is a state of being not good, immoral, ect, while devil means the one who does evil

Ang hindi ka sumunod sa utos ni God ay hindi good

anong tawag mo sa hindi pagsunod sa Utos ni God, neutral?? hhehehhee Im so dead with this indeed!



Pumasok lang ang kasalanan ng magrebelde na si lucifer

Hindi naman kasalanan (sin) ang pinag-uusapan dyan kundi evil. you can and everybody who has got free will can commit/do sin kasi that's part of your actions.

The question was, would Satan be able to disobey God/do evil if God did not include evil as one of the options? Yes or no?

It is like asking, if all the choices given are correct answer, would you be able to choose an incorrect answer, yes or no?? ---see dyan kayo sumablay.


How can a God create evil if He has not that system in Himself. You can not give what you do not have...Paano mo bibigyan ng kendi ang anak mo kung ala kang kendi...see what your reasoning brings you
.

See the gigantic fallacy here. If you manufacture candies, it doesnt mean that something of your body or soul is a candy - see the point.

Kung bibigya mo ng candy ang anak mo, it doesnt mean na ang candy ay parte ng katawan o kaluluwa mo hehehehe

So God doesnt have evil in and of himself because he is different and distinct from his creation, and evil is but part of his creation. What God has given are options for your free will (obey which is good, or disobey which is evil)
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

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