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Did God create evil/devil?

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by MarcCatholic on Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:28 pm

Kuya Jewel it seems you appear to be strawman. We get what you say but you didn't get us. We don't claim that we create our own new evil thoughts but it could (Note that the thought is what we are talking here, not the creation of evil because of course it "existed" since the beginning!). The intensity of the term create here is just like saying we make but we can't deny the fact that it's still a creation. We are very aware that those examples are already existing pero pinatos ko na nga yong hiling mo diba. Nagbigay ako ng totally new example. We are very aware also that evil happened long time ago. May sinabi ba kaming nauna kami? Wala kayo lang po ang nag-aakusa. What we mean here is we eventually create evil thoughts and the reason why we were able to make an evil thought is because evil is already available, not claiming that evil is our new invention. Now, we're getting too far. The topic is Did God create evil? Let's go back to that. I say no because evil is the absence of goodness. God cannot create His None-Self. Thanks.
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:41 am

MarcCatholic wrote:Kuya Jewel it seems you appear to be strawman. We get what you say but you didn't get us. We don't claim that we create our own new evil thoughts but it could (Note that the thought is what we are talking here, not the creation of evil because of course it "existed" since the beginning!). The intensity of the term create here is just like saying we make but we can't deny the fact that it's still a creation. We are very aware that those examples are already existing pero pinatos ko na nga yong hiling mo diba. Nagbigay ako ng totally new example. We are very aware also that evil happened long time ago. May sinabi ba kaming nauna kami? Wala kayo lang po ang nag-aakusa. What we mean here is we eventually create evil thoughts and the reason why we were able to make an evil thought is because evil is already available, not claiming that evil is our new invention. Now, we're getting too far. The topic is Did God create evil? Let's go back to that. I say no because evil is the absence of goodness. God cannot create His None-Self. Thanks.

That is exactly my point. Yung sinasabi ninyo na you can create an evil thought ay akala nyo lang yun na kaya nyong gumawa ng evil thought kasi the truth is that it is not actually creating evil in your mind, it is thinking or let me call it formulating evil which means that whatever idea you may think of is in fact already existing elsewhere or outside of you, so you cant really call it to be your creation, tho it is new in your mind. The bottom line/principle is that the creation does not precede its creator.

Okay back to the topic: Did God create evil? Yes He did because God is the only creator of everything and everything includes good and evil - those who say that there are other creator besides God are guilty of polytheism.

Please take note marc; The creation is not part of God because God is necessarily different and distinct from the creation.

So by God creating evil, that doesnt mean that there is evil in himself; just like the example of fred which debunked him; If you manufacture anything, say candies, that doesnt mean that candy is part and parcel of yourself as a human being.

So dont think that since God created evil, he is also evil - that's a very wrong understanding because the creator is different and distinct and not part of the creation.


Thanks
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Yidda on Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:53 pm

What is evil? Evil is a deprivation of some good. Moral evil is a deprivation of some good required by the love of God, neighbor, self.

Since evil does not really exist(it lacks the quality of created things), it is not created and is not a part of creation. It is an absence contrary to the will of the Creator.

Free will does not imply evil. The Virgin Mary had free will and yet never sinned. The majority of the holy Angels did not sin and have never sinned, even though they have free will. Their number is exceedingly immense.

God is not the first cause of evil because endowing created persons with free will does not directly cause sin.

The first cause of anything is its immediate and direct cause. So the decision to sin is the first cause of evil, and this is attributable to the person who knowingly and freely chooses to sin.

In moral theology, the word evil is used in a different way than in common speech. Commonly, we use evil only for the worst acts of immorality. But moral theology uses the world evil for any and all sins, actual as well as objective, and even for various types of harm that can occur. This usage is consistent with the term's use in the Bible.

The same word (evil) is used in the Bible for moral evil versus various kinds of harm or disaster.

example:

miscarriage: physical evil, not moral evil, not objective sin, not actual sin

abortion: objective sin, moral evil, physical evil

Physical Evil: starvation
Moral Evil: omission of charity by not distributing food by the wealthy to the poor.
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by vril on Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:34 pm

Yidda wrote:What is evil? Evil is a deprivation of some good. Moral evil is a deprivation of some good required by the love of God, neighbor, self.

Since evil does not really exist(it lacks the quality of created things), it is not created and is not a part of creation. It is an absence contrary to the will of the Creator.

Free will does not imply evil. The Virgin Mary had free will and yet never sinned. The majority of the holy Angels did not sin and have never sinned, even though they have free will. Their number is exceedingly immense.

God is not the first cause of evil because endowing created persons with free will does not directly cause sin.

The first cause of anything is its immediate and direct cause. So the decision to sin is the first cause of evil, and this is attributable to the person who knowingly and freely chooses to sin.

In moral theology, the word evil is used in a different way than in common speech. Commonly, we use evil only for the worst acts of immorality. But moral theology uses the world evil for any and all sins, actual as well as objective, and even for various types of harm that can occur. This usage is consistent with the term's use in the Bible.

The same word (evil) is used in the Bible for moral evil versus various kinds of harm or disaster.

example:

miscarriage: physical evil, not moral evil, not objective sin, not actual sin

abortion: objective sin, moral evil, physical evil

Physical Evil: starvation
Moral Evil: omission of charity by not distributing food by the wealthy to the poor.

Hi Yidda,

How do you explain this verse?

Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Yidda on Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:36 pm

vril wrote:

Hi Yidda,

How do you explain this verse?

Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

{45:7} formans lucem, et creans tenebras, faciens pacem, et creans malum: ego Dominus faciens omnia hæc.

{45:7} I form the light and create the darkness. I make peace and create disaster. I, the Lord, do all these things.

~ The word ‘malum’ as contrasted with peace is not ‘evil,’ but rather harm or disaster.
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:14 pm

Jewel wrote:

Naku patay tayo dyan, kaya mo pala mag-create ng human being, watta shock!!!

Sinasabi ko na nga ba eh, quote ng quote ng homonyms at inaakala na identical lang ang meanings hehehe

Hindi porke magkatunog ang pronounciation ay identical and meaning lalo na sa context fred - Procreate means reproduction, hindi creation hehehe

Human being pa kaya ang kaya mong gawin eh kahit pakpak ng langaw ay di mo kayang gawin hehehehe

Sablay na sablay talaga yan fred Razz


.


I still disagree because what you mind is capable of is thinking of ideas, consolidating ideas putting them together. As I said before, creating in this context is to bring something not existing in to existence. You cant call it your creation if it already have existed before. Evil already existed even before you were born, so how would you call it your creation, that a big sablay there.

Your ignorance of something doesnt mean that that something is not existing elsewhere - that's the bottom line there.)

Uhmmm...di ka naman siguro baog ano Jewel? Kung hindi ay dapat alam mo ang ibig kong sabihin na human being.

Reproduction? Ano ang nire-reproduce mo? Remember each one is unique person. No persons are the same with respect to quality and behaviour.



That's the problem there because of the same reason; you cant call something to be your creation if it already have existed before you because the creator must have existed first before his creation.

Same quality, style, design etc....they maybe same but not identical my friend jewel.

I wont delve into the scriptures for now in order to narrow the discussion, because as soon I say something about your bible, the topic would be widen; I dont think that your bible is correct in calling those who follow God's commands to be gods (sometimes there are tricks in using a capital G, and small g for God). what is that small "g" for god, im sure it is not the same context and meaning as capital "G" God.

That's your own interpretation and that's definitely incorrect one.

Funny question indeed. Is evil a creator? Of course not! Evil and good are not personalities my friend fred, so how did you even think to ask that question? Evil is a state of being not good hehehe

You did not get the question mi amigo. Evil = satan (noun). Now please answer the question.

Wrong because of the same reason; the creator must have existed before the creation, not the other way around. Did the saying exist before the child was born or not?

And who created it first before Rizal did it?

Mali ka parin fred, and you are twisting/adding something to the idea given. What I said is that if you think of evil and you did not do it, you cant be blame for that because that is part of your option (obey or disobey). Now if you say 'consenting' is another stuff added to mere thinking of it - in that case you will be blameworthy.

It is like saying that in the options of the question, you consented that the incorrect option should be the correct answer despite knowing that it is incorrect, even if you did not choose that answer, you are still wrong.

The correct position is that, in the options, I know that (b.) is the correct answer, while (a. & c.) are incorrect. I will not be blamed for thinking that (a.&c.) are incorrect. But if I did not choose (b.) and leave the question unanswered because I "consented" "supposed" that either (a. or c.) is the correct answer, then my answer is still wrong or incorrect

Walang twisting dyan jewel. I'm just telling the truth. Ang question dyan paano mo inisip? Now kung walang consent ay wala na tayong issue dyan and no need to expound on this more.

See, huli ka na, sabi mo "It is not good but it's not evil (satan)" hehehe. Disobeying God is not evil to you? wow, what kinda concept is that.

BTW fred, dont be confused with the words "evil" and "devil" because they are not the same, they are just homonyms. Evil is a state of being not good, immoral, ect, while devil means the one who does evil

When Allah say to you "Jewel, magdasal ka...hindi mo nagawa at nakatulog ka" ---- have you done evil now?

Hindi naman kasalanan (sin) ang pinag-uusapan dyan kundi evil. you can and everybody who has got free will can commit/do sin kasi that's part of your actions.

The question was, would Satan be able to disobey God/do evil if God did not include evil as one of the options? Yes or no?

It is like asking, if all the choices given are correct answer, would you be able to choose an incorrect answer, yes or no?? ---see dyan kayo sumablay.

Satan and sin is inseperable ganyang kasimple ang logic dyan. Di na freewill ang tawag dyan jewel lolss


How can a God create evil if He has not that system in Himself. You can not give what you do not have...Paano mo bibigyan ng kendi ang anak mo kung ala kang kendi...see what your reasoning brings you
.

See the gigantic fallacy here. If you manufacture candies, it doesnt mean that something of your body or soul is a candy - see the point.

Kung bibigya mo ng candy ang anak mo, it doesnt mean na ang candy ay parte ng katawan o kaluluwa mo hehehehe

So God doesnt have evil in and of himself because he is different and distinct from his creation, and evil is but part of his creation. What God has given are options for your free will (obey which is good, or disobey which is evil)

Dyan ka mali amigo.

Kendi ba kamo? You have it in your system mi amigo.. at yun din ang kendi na ibibigay mo sa anak mo.

Ibibigay mo ba sa anak mo ang kendi na hindi mo gusto o masagwa ang lasa? Yes or no?




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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:26 am

Uhmmm...di ka naman siguro baog ano Jewel? Kung hindi ay dapat alam mo ang ibig kong sabihin na human being.

Reproduction? Ano ang nire-reproduce mo? Remember each one is unique person. No persons are the same with respect to quality and behaviour.


Sablay ka talaga dyan fred, huwag ka nang humirit maraming sumusubaybay satin, mapapahiya ka lang.

Procreating means reproduction, begetting -- It is not creating hehehe

Kunting basa lang sa definition fred, maliliwanagan ka na sa issue na yan. Huwag kang malinlang sa homonyms hehehe



Same quality, style, design etc....they maybe same but not identical my friend jewel.

Irrefutable ang stand ko dyan fred, di mo kayang tumbahin yun - the creator must have existed first before its/his creation - you cant have it simultaneous or vice versa heheheh



That's your own interpretation and that's definitely incorrect one.

Im pretty sure with it; your bible has got so many inconsistencies in and of itself and in science - i think that's very well known to everyone today.



You did not get the question mi amigo. Evil = satan (noun). Now please answer the question.


Dont insist on you clear mistakes fred. Evil is not Satan. Satan is a DOER of evil. Satan is a personality, while evil is not - hehehe


And who created it first before Rizal did it?

Whoever did it before rizal, it is 100% sure that it is not the boy because the boy came/existed later - that's the bottom line there



Walang twisting dyan jewel. I'm just telling the truth. Ang question dyan paano mo inisip? Now kung walang consent ay wala na tayong issue dyan and no need to expound on this more.

That's ridiculous fred. If you see a beautiful hot woman and you think of, in your mind, seducing her, but you did not carry it out - That's not a sin yet; it is a normal human male reaction. What makes it a sin is if you continue to think of it and carry it out.


When Allah say to you "Jewel, magdasal ka...hindi mo nagawa at nakatulog ka" ---- have you done evil now?


That's nonsense and weird fred - if your God decreed that you'll commit sin but you didnt, that means your God is powerless and because his decree fails.

Dapat pag-isipan mo muna ang mga sasabihin mo fred kasi parang low batt na battery mo hehehe


Satan and sin is inseperable ganyang kasimple ang logic dyan. Di na freewill ang tawag dyan jewel lolss

Fly away skyline pigeon fly.

Evil becomes a sin only when it is willfully done fred - so dont be confused with the two - ang layo naman ng sagot mo - ilapit mo naman ng konti.



Dyan ka mali amigo.

Kendi ba kamo? You have it in your system mi amigo.. at yun din ang kendi na ibibigay mo sa anak mo.

Ibibigay mo ba sa anak mo ang kendi na hindi mo gusto o masagwa ang lasa? Yes or no?


You are the big mali there amigo hehehe

when you give a candy to your son, that doesnt mean that candy is part of your self.

If you give a golden ring to your mom, that doesnt mean that some part of your body or soul is a golden ring hehhehe

That's pretty ludicrous idea fred

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by MarcCatholic on Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:24 am

Mas maigi pa sigurong ilagay na natin to sa 1 on 1 thread para meron ng debate for the first time ang new barm. Lumalayo na din kasi. Balikan natin ang paksa. Did God create evil? Yes or no po tayo at explain.


Sabi ko nga God did not create. One thing is evil did not actually "exist" though we feel it and it manifests materially/physically. It is just like the case of cold that it's the absence of heat but did you really create it? Plus, God did not create his None-self and I hope you get what I mean figuratively.


Plus, stop that candy now. Here's the new Kuya Jewel since you argued that it shouldn't be a part of the person that's being given. Ok fine? But that's not correct all the times at nagkataon lang e ang candy hindi umayon doon sa sinabi mo. May loophole kang nakita. What if we talk love. You can't give love if you don't have that right (may taong bang ganun)? Iba nalang. Intelligence. Ideas. Oh these are abstracts now. Can you share an idea which you don't know? Hmmmm. I guess this hits the bird now. So I hope we can go back to the topic.
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by vril on Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:00 am

Yidda wrote:

{45:7} formans lucem, et creans tenebras, faciens pacem, et creans malum: ego Dominus faciens omnia hæc.

{45:7} I form the light and create the darkness. I make peace and create disaster. I, the Lord, do all these things.

~ The word ‘malum’ as contrasted with peace is not ‘evil,’ but rather harm or disaster.

Is harm or disaster not evil?

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:05 am

Jewel wrote:


Sablay ka talaga dyan fred, huwag ka nang humirit maraming sumusubaybay satin, mapapahiya ka lang.

Procreating means reproduction, begetting -- It is not creating hehehe

Kunting basa lang sa definition fred, maliliwanagan ka na sa issue na yan. Huwag kang malinlang sa homonyms hehehe

Uhmmm ayaw sumagot ng diretso, ang daming komento. Alang epek yung dami ng komento bro...ulit:

Ano ang nire-reproduce mo?


Irrefutable ang stand ko dyan fred, di mo kayang tumbahin yun - the creator must have existed first before its/his creation - you cant have it simultaneous or vice versa heheheh

Talaga? At sino ang creator ng table na yan siga nga?


Im pretty sure with it; your bible has got so many inconsistencies in and of itself and in science - i think that's very well known to everyone today.

If that's the case then why argue with us, and at the same time trying to interpret our bible as if you're an authority on it ----- isn't that absurdity?


Dont insist on you clear mistakes fred. Evil is not Satan. Satan is a DOER of evil. Satan is a personality, while evil is not - hehehe

Lolsss...anyway...so can you now answer the question --- Can satan create good things?


Whoever did it before rizal, it is 100% sure that it is not the boy because the boy came/existed later - that's the bottom line there

At sino nga ang nag-create kung hindi si Rizal ---- simpleng tanong lang to jewel at isang simpleng sagot lang ang hinihingi natin dito. Sino?


Walang twisting dyan jewel. I'm just telling the truth. Ang question dyan paano mo inisip? Now kung walang consent ay wala na tayong issue dyan and no need to expound on this more.

That's ridiculous fred. If you see a beautiful hot woman and you think of, in your mind, seducing her, but you did not carry it out - That's not a sin yet; it is a normal human male reaction. What makes it a sin is if you continue to think of it and carry it out.

Ridiculous? If you understand what i'm talking about then there's no point of expounding on this issue of consenting to sin.

That's nonsense and weird fred - if your God decreed that you'll commit sin but you didnt, that means your God is powerless and because his decree fails.

Dapat pag-isipan mo muna ang mga sasabihin mo fred kasi parang low batt na battery mo hehehe

What? God decreed us to commit sin? ---- Did Allah say that in your Quran?

Naku jewel, dapat ikaw ang mag-isip sa pananaw mong yan....


Fly away skyline pigeon fly.

Evil becomes a sin only when it is willfully done fred - so dont be confused with the two - ang layo naman ng sagot mo - ilapit mo naman ng konti.


Di naman malalim ang sinabi ko ah bro. Simple lang yan, ulit: ---Satan and sin cannot be separated -- do you agree or not?

Now, Ang Freewill ba freewill pa rin kung ala yung negative side at puro positive side lang ---- Yes or no?


You are the big mali there amigo hehehe

when you give a candy to your son, that doesnt mean that candy is part of your self.

If you give a golden ring to your mom, that doesnt mean that some part of your body or soul is a golden ring hehhehe

That's pretty ludicrous idea fred

Sisimplihan ko lang ang tanong ha jewel:

Magbibigay ka ba ng pagkaing me lason sa anak mo?


Last edited by fredms3 on Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Yidda on Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:08 am

vril wrote:

Is harm or disaster not evil?

Physical evil.

The term physical evil does not refer to evil in the usual sense of the world. In common parlance, evil means severe immorality. But in moral theology, moral evil is used for even a slight immorality, and physical evil is used for what is not immoral at all.

Christ's suffering on the Cross and His death were physical evils, in other words "harm". He suffered severe harm for our sake on the cross. It is sometimes moral to permit physical evil for the sake of helping others.
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by vril on Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:13 am

Yidda wrote:

Physical evil.

The term physical evil does not refer to evil in the usual sense of the world. In common parlance, evil means severe immorality. But in moral theology, moral evil is used for even a slight immorality, and physical evil is used for what is not immoral at all.

Christ's suffering on the Cross and His death were physical evils, in other words "harm". He suffered severe harm for our sake on the cross. It is sometimes moral to permit physical evil for the sake of helping others.

Physical evil as you described causes deaths. Is this not immoral? God creates harm and disaster which results to deaths of innocents. How is this translated as moral act?

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Yidda on Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:22 pm

vril wrote:

Physical evil as you described causes deaths. Is this not immoral? God creates harm and disaster which results to deaths of innocents. How is this translated as moral act?


No.

God allows suffering (natural or physical evil) for good and necessary reasons:

to prepare us to comfort others (see II Cor. 1:4-6);

to teach us to trust in Him and not in ourselves (see 1:9;4:7,16, 18; 12:1-10);

to turn our hearts toward heaven (see 5:1-4);

to develop maturity (see James 1:1-12);

to discipline us for sinful behavior (see I Cor. 11:30);

and to judge wickedness (see Ps. 37:12,13).

It would be terrifying if God does not control evil(Is 45:7) because that would imply that evil forces can resist and overpower God. Expect suffering. Realize that in a fallen world suffering is the abnormal normality (see 1 Pet. 2:12-14)

why is there suffering?

As a result of the Fall from grace of Adam and Eve, God requires us to seek and find salvation, in the midst of sin and suffering. This requirement is not a punishment. Eternal salvation is so valuable that the sufferings and efforts that we must make, in cooperation with grace, in order to obtain it are a very small price to pay. God chooses to allow us to suffer due to the sin of Adam and Eve as a way for us to participate in our own redemption.
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by vril on Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:03 pm

Yidda wrote:

No.

God allows suffering (natural or physical evil) for good and necessary reasons:

to prepare us to comfort others (see II Cor. 1:4-6);

to teach us to trust in Him and not in ourselves (see 1:9;4:7,16, 18; 12:1-10);

to turn our hearts toward heaven (see 5:1-4);

to develop maturity (see James 1:1-12);

to discipline us for sinful behavior (see I Cor. 11:30);

and to judge wickedness (see Ps. 37:12,13).

It would be terrifying if God does not control evil(Is 45:7) because that would imply that evil forces can resist and overpower God. Expect suffering. Realize that in a fallen world suffering is the abnormal normality (see 1 Pet. 2:12-14)

why is there suffering?

As a result of the Fall from grace of Adam and Eve, God requires us to seek and find salvation, in the midst of sin and suffering. This requirement is not a punishment. Eternal salvation is so valuable that the sufferings and efforts that we must make, in cooperation with grace, in order to obtain it are a very small price to pay. God chooses to allow us to suffer due to the sin of Adam and Eve as a way for us to participate in our own redemption.

God allows physical evil leading to deaths of innocents does not teach humans anything but despair and injustice.

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by vril on Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:34 pm

deaths if innocents are never small prices to pay.

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:06 pm

fredms3 wrote:

Uhmmm ayaw sumagot ng diretso, ang daming komento. Alang epek yung dami ng komento bro...ulit:

Ano ang nire-reproduce mo?

Ayan, ayaw mo na makinig ng paliwanag, hindi ka na naghahanap ng truth hehehe

Uulitin ko, pro-creating doesnt mean creating okay? It simply means begetting. Everybody would agree with me that your parents begotten you, but no one would agree with you that your parents created you. Nalilito ka lang sa terms na "procreate" at "create" - hindi po yan the same banana boy hehehehe




Talaga? At sino ang creator ng table na yan siga nga?

Nagpresume ka na kaagad na creation mo ang table, pinag-uusapan pa nga eh. Ang korek na tanong dyan ay sino ang nag-assemble ng table na yan, kasi nga ang mga materials ay mula sa ibat-ibang bagay hehehe



If that's the case then why argue with us, and at the same time trying to interpret our bible as if you're an authority on it ----- isn't that absurdity?

I argue with because I did not say that all of your bible verses are wrong. Some are wrong, some are correct, so I have to accept the correct ones and reject the wrong ones. If something is proven to be wrong from it, then you have to accept it, if you are not a blind follower.

God has given me intellect, so I used my logic/mind to understand things.

If I am not the authority to interpret your bible, then neither you, how about that? Your bible doesnt say/specify who would interpret it, so where is the question of authority here?

In fact the OT is not your scripture, it's by the Jews but you included it in your canon and make a different interpretation on it? - That's a pretty big back fire on you right?





Lolsss...anyway...so can you now answer the question --- Can satan create good things?

CAN?? Yes of Course! Satan believes that there is only one God, and he knows it very well - is that evil for you?? hehehe

The point is that evil and satan are not the same banana - You cant escape on that mistake fred. Satan is a DOER of evil, so satan is a personality while evil is not, therefore they are not one and the same.




At sino nga ang nag-create kung hindi si Rizal ---- simpleng tanong lang to jewel at isang simpleng sagot lang ang hinihingi natin dito. Sino?

Simpleng sagot bakit di ma gets? mahirap ba intindihin tagalog ko? Sori ha taga mindanao kasi ako eh, hindi talaga ako expert sa tagalog kaya pinipilit kong gamitin ang poor english ko dito.

The point is that, since the child existed after the saying, then he cant be the creator of it because the creation cant precede it's creator because the creator is the one who brings the creation in to existence, not the other way around.

So it doesnt matter kung kilala ba ang unang gumawa, ang issue dyan ay Did the child created it or not, hindi Who created it first - Oh malinaw na ba?



Ridiculous? If you understand what i'm talking about then there's no point of expounding on this issue of consenting to sin.

Thanks for agree with me. talagang di mo kayang lusutan ang issue na yan. Merely thinking of evil is not a sin - consenting and or doing it is an act of choice and that makes it a sin.


What? God decreed us to commit sin? ---- Did Allah say that in your Quran?

Naku jewel, dapat ikaw ang mag-isip sa pananaw mong yan....

naku, ang layo naman ng sagot heheh, ilapit mo naman fred.

What I was refuting is you premise that God would decree to you to commit sin, yet the decree did not materialized because you fall asleep - that would make your God a powerless i--d--i--o--t god because his decree fails. So I was refuting on the failed decree not on the logic of the decree. The decree is of course illogical.


Di naman malalim ang sinabi ko ah bro. Simple lang yan, ulit: ---Satan and sin cannot be separated -- do you agree or not?

Now, Ang Freewill ba freewill pa rin kung ala yung negative side at puro positive side lang ---- Yes or no?

Fly away, away, and away na talaga yan fred.

Satan is not sin, and sin is not satan - Satan is the doer, and sin is the act - ganyan ka simple yan.

Satan believes that there is one true God because he knows it full well, is that evil according to you?

So you are agreeing with me now that free will is of two sides, good and evil, that's good! So you are basically refuting yourself because you said that satan and sin cant be separated, yet you clearly admitted that free will has positive and negative sides.

If you cant separate satan and sin, then that means that he is deprived of free choice, therefore God cant blame him - see your big fallacy there?



Sisimplihan ko lang ang tanong ha jewel:

Magbibigay ka ba ng pagkaing me lason sa anak mo?

Oh bakit napunta sa lason, di ba candy yun hehehehe

Hindi yan ang sitwasyon freed kasi by God giving us free will, the choice of good or evil, that doesnt mean he is poisoning us. the free will is to test our faith.

Go back to my example about a teacher who is giving an exam to his students. the teacher purposely put a correct and an incorrect choices in order to test/know who among the students have understood the lesson which he discussed.

That's pretty clear fred. Think about it okay?

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:18 pm

MarcCatholic wrote:Mas maigi pa sigurong ilagay na natin to sa 1 on 1 thread para meron ng debate for the first time ang new barm. Lumalayo na din kasi. Balikan natin ang paksa. Did God create evil? Yes or no po tayo at explain.

Okay ako sa proposal na yan marc, basta malinaw ang rules. natiknikal na ako nyan noon eh, tinalo lang ng kinopya sa website ang arguments ko dahil nireject ng judge ang evidences ko dahil daw hindi tinalakay ng kalaban heheh

di ba baliktad ang utak nun? Dapat kapag di nirefute ang evidence mo despite chances to do so, it means it is deemed accepted - eh baliktad ang utak ng judge eh - walang points daw dun sa unrefuted evidence dahil hindi nirefute ng kalaban heheheh

Cge simulan na natin; sino ba sa inyo, ikaw o si fred?

Atheist dapat ang judge para fair
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:16 pm

Jewel wrote:

Ayan, ayaw mo na makinig ng paliwanag, hindi ka na naghahanap ng truth hehehe

Uulitin ko, pro-creating doesnt mean creating okay? It simply means begetting. Everybody would agree with me that your parents begotten you, but no one would agree with you that your parents created you. Nalilito ka lang sa terms na "procreate" at "create" - hindi po yan the same banana boy hehehehe

Magpatunay ka sa dictionary o kahit sang source na ang procreator does not mean creator or maker....

Mahirap yung haka-haka. Ganyan kasimple ang hinihingi ko sa'yo, else, malaki problema mo mi amigo.


Nagpresume ka na kaagad na creation mo ang table, pinag-uusapan pa nga eh. Ang korek na tanong dyan ay sino ang nag-assemble ng table na yan, kasi nga ang mga materials ay mula sa ibat-ibang bagay hehehe

So ganito ka magtanong sa dept. store: Sino ang nag-assemble ng lamesang yan?

Ngayon kung isang materyales lang ang ginamit ano naman ang tawag mo sa gumawa nun?

I argue with because I did not say that all of your bible verses are wrong. Some are wrong, some are correct, so I have to accept the correct ones and reject the wrong ones. If something is proven to be wrong from it, then you have to accept it, if you are not a blind follower.

God has given me intellect, so I used my logic/mind to understand things.

If I am not the authority to interpret your bible, then neither you, how about that? Your bible doesnt say/specify who would interpret it, so where is the question of authority here?

In fact the OT is not your scripture, it's by the Jews but you included it in your canon and make a different interpretation on it? - That's a pretty big back fire on you right?

How can you say that the verse is wrong or right if you're not the authority on that in the first place. It's just your own personal interpretation on the verse

It's the Church who is authorize to interpret the Bible, because it's the one who canonized the Bible thru the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Backfire? Not at all mi amigo. Why is Jesus not a Jew?


CAN?? Yes of Course! Satan believes that there is only one God, and he knows it very well - is that evil for you?? hehehe

The point is that evil and satan are not the same banana - You cant escape on that mistake fred. Satan is a DOER of evil, so satan is a personality while evil is not, therefore they are not one and the same.

Does satan worships God?

Define Evil as noun.


Simpleng sagot bakit di ma gets? mahirap ba intindihin tagalog ko? Sori ha taga mindanao kasi ako eh, hindi talaga ako expert sa tagalog kaya pinipilit kong gamitin ang poor english ko dito.

The point is that, since the child existed after the saying, then he cant be the creator of it because the creation cant precede it's creator because the creator is the one who brings the creation in to existence, not the other way around.

So it doesnt matter kung kilala ba ang unang gumawa, ang issue dyan ay Did the child created it or not, hindi Who created it first - Oh malinaw na ba?

Mali ka jewel dyan...we are discussing if man can create...So kung hindi bata ang gumawa sino ang unang gumawa nyan....Kung si Rizal ang sagot ay bingo na --- At kung hindi pa rin si Rizal ay sino and so on and so forth.

Issue pa rin dito kung kaya ngang mag-create ng tao.


Thanks for agree with me. talagang di mo kayang lusutan ang issue na yan. Merely thinking of evil is not a sin - consenting and or doing it is an act of choice and that makes it a sin.

Di kayang lusutan? Bakit meron bang dapat lusutan sa isyung yan. Kung ano ang paniniwala mo ay yan din ang paniniwala ko tungkol dyan.


naku, ang layo naman ng sagot heheh, ilapit mo naman fred.

What I was refuting is you premise that God would decree to you to commit sin, yet the decree did not materialized because you fall asleep - that would make your God a powerless i--d--i--o--t god because his decree fails. So I was refuting on the failed decree not on the logic of the decree. The decree is of course illogical.

Ikaw ang nawala sa punto mi amigo. Tingnan mong mabuti ang previous post mo tungkol dito.

Exactly, why would God decree us to commit sin in the first place. Yan ba ang turo sa inyo, na dinidecree kayo ni Allah na mag-commit ng sin?


Fly away, away, and away na talaga yan fred.

Satan is not sin, and sin is not satan - Satan is the doer, and sin is the act - ganyan ka simple yan.

Satan believes that there is one true God because he knows it full well, is that evil according to you?

So you are agreeing with me now that free will is of two sides, good and evil, that's good! So you are basically refuting yourself because you said that satan and sin cant be separated, yet you clearly admitted that free will has positive and negative sides.

If you cant separate satan and sin, then that means that he is deprived of free choice, therefore God cant blame him - see your big fallacy there?

Sinasabi ko bang iisa sila, ang sabi ko inseparable...kuha mo na mi amigo?

Matagal ko ng posisyon yang freewill is choosing between good and evil --- so anong refute ang sinasabi mo dyan. But yung evil dyan ay hindi si Satanas mismo.

Wrong analogy ka ulit mi amigo ----- Wala ng free choice pa si Satanas dahil satanas na siya. Nung si lucifer pa siya me free choice pa siya but after the rebellion ala na amigo ---- I hope i clarified this to you.


Oh bakit napunta sa lason, di ba candy yun hehehehe

Hindi yan ang sitwasyon freed kasi by God giving us free will, the choice of good or evil, that doesnt mean he is poisoning us. the free will is to test our faith.

Go back to my example about a teacher who is giving an exam to his students. the teacher purposely put a correct and an incorrect choices in order to test/know who among the students have understood the lesson which he discussed.

That's pretty clear fred. Think about it okay?

Thanks

Sagutin mo muna jewel ang simpleng tanong na binigay ko sau...

Magbibigay ka ba ng pagkaing me lason sa anak mo?

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by MarcCatholic on Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:45 pm

Ahehehehe. Honestly e pabor ako sa'yo sa debate na yon hindi about sa doktrina kundi sa way of argumentation. Anyway, sa tingin ko kayong dalawa ni kuya Fred ang magdebate para makita ng malinaw ang mga puntos since kayong dalawa naman ang talagang friends dito. Ahehehe! Sa totoong lang kasi nakakatamad kaya basahin ang mga mahahabang quotations.


Pero di mo pa sinagot ang tanong ko kuya Jewel. Diba ayaw mo ng candy dahil wala nga naman sa nature ng giver yon? E ano naman po yong binigay kong halimbawa na abstract. Yong love. Yong idea. Yong intelligence. Diba malinaw na bahagi ng tao to? Kapag wala kang idea hindi ka makapagbibigay noon. Sasabihin mo na ang nuclear ay tubig na green pero hindi ito totoo dahil hindi mo pala napag-aralan ang basic physics noong High School.
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:43 pm

MarcCatholic wrote:Ahehehehe. Honestly e pabor ako sa'yo sa debate na yon hindi about sa doktrina kundi sa way of argumentation. Anyway, sa tingin ko kayong dalawa ni kuya Fred ang magdebate para makita ng malinaw ang mga puntos since kayong dalawa naman ang talagang friends dito. Ahehehe! Sa totoong lang kasi nakakatamad kaya basahin ang mga mahahabang quotations.

Cge, sabihin mo sa kanya, si ateo ang mod at sya narin ang judge - buti yan neutral kaya walang bias


Pero di mo pa sinagot ang tanong ko kuya Jewel. Diba ayaw mo ng candy dahil wala nga naman sa nature ng giver yon? E ano naman po yong binigay kong halimbawa na abstract. Yong love. Yong idea. Yong intelligence. Diba malinaw na bahagi ng tao to? Kapag wala kang idea hindi ka makapagbibigay noon. Sasabihin mo na ang nuclear ay tubig na green pero hindi ito totoo dahil hindi mo pala napag-aralan ang basic physics noong High School.

Ang punto ko dun sa example candy marc ay simple lang - it doesnt prove/support the argument that if God created evil, then God must have evil in himself - mali po yon. Tulad ng candy example nyo, hindi porket nagbigay ka ng candy sa anak mo ay may parte ng katawan mo na candy, o kaya naman sa kaluluwa mo na candy - hheehehe

Tungkol naman sa love na sinasabi mo (abstract example) ay hindi parin yun tama kasi yung love na pwede mong e-share sa iba ay existing na bago ka pa ipinanganak. So maging love man yan at kung ano pa man, hindi parin ikaw ang creator nyan dahil wala kang kakayahang gumawa nyan - eh kung pakpak ng langaw di mo kayang gawin, ano pa kaya ang mga iyan? Isip-isip lang po ng konte
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by MarcCatholic on Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:17 am

Kuya Jewel hindi ko po tinutukoy yong creation tungkol sa sharing na yan. Ang pinupunto ko ay yong giving na part of you na hindi mo pwedeng ilahat nalang kung hindi siya pwede sa candy. Ang sa akin ay yong argument lang about giving which is also applicable of being part of you, not creation. Yon lang pinabulaanan ko. Ibang usapin na po yong sa creation. Strawman po kayo. Hindi ko naman sinasabing creation na. Very Happy
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:16 am

Debate?

Well, this site as well as other site are means to my relaxation and enjoyment. I'm open to debate on this topic but not at this point in time friends.

And once i take it, the basis of the discussion would be the Bible.

As for now, let's enjoy our exchanges without time constraint, okies.....

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:40 pm

fredms3 wrote:Debate?

Well, this site as well as other site are means to my relaxation and enjoyment. I'm open to debate on this topic but not at this point in time friends.

And once i take it, the basis of the discussion would be the Bible.

As for now, let's enjoy our exchanges without time constraint, okies.....


Mabuti at malinaw ang stand mo fred, bible ang gusto mong maging basihan.

Gusto ko rin linawin na hindi ako payag dyan sa basihan kasi naghahanap tayo ng katotohanan at hindi natin ito mahahanap sa scripture na maraming mistakes tulad ng bible.

Kaya ang kalalabasan parin ng lahat ay debate tungkol sa bible, yan ba ay Pure word of God or inerrant - open ako sa debate dyan. At para fair naman, open din ako para pagdebatehan ang Quran as part 2 para may chance naman ang hindi muslim na tulad mo na e-scrutinize kung talaga bang purong salita ng Diyos ang quran o ito ba ay inerrant.


Waiting lang ako dito.


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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:48 pm

MarcCatholic wrote:Kuya Jewel hindi ko po tinutukoy yong creation tungkol sa sharing na yan. Ang pinupunto ko ay yong giving na part of you na hindi mo pwedeng ilahat nalang kung hindi siya pwede sa candy. Ang sa akin ay yong argument lang about giving which is also applicable of being part of you, not creation. Yon lang pinabulaanan ko. Ibang usapin na po yong sa creation. Strawman po kayo. Hindi ko naman sinasabing creation na. Very Happy

Hindi po stawman ang sagot ko dyan kasi nererelate ko ang example nyo dun sa main topic natin; tinitingnan ko kung tumutigma nga ba ang analogy na ibinigay nyo dun sa main issue - so kung tumaliwas ang punto mo dahil merong maliit na bagay ang gusto mong tumbokin dun sa issue, hindi ko na yon problema, ano po.

Ang punto ko dyan ay malinaw, it doesnt really follow that what you give is part and parcel of yourself in any way shape or form because the giver is not necessarily the creator of what he gives - ganon po kasimple yan.

If I give you a car, you wouldnt think that that car is part and parcel of me as a human being composed of body and spirit.

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by MarcCatholic on Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:14 am

Yon nga po Kuya Jewel. I think pareho tayo ng nasa isip e. Hindi natin masasabing ang ibibigay mo ay bahagi in general sa'yo, o hindi bahagi sa'yo. Ito'y nakadepende. Pero, ang punto po kasi paano ito ginamit sa statement. Syempre ang gusto palabasin ni Kuya Fred ay ang idea na you can't give what you don't have, not literally the candy o kung ano pa yan. Tama, hindi mo talaga maibibigay ang kotse doon sa tao kung wala ka nito, not the argument that you are composed also of machine, wheels, etc. Nakita nyo na po ang pinupunto ko? So sige ibalik natin sa main topic, malamang si God ay hindi niya ito lilikhain sapagkat siya ay pure goodness but He allowed it and of course, alam niya ito, because God can draw out greater goodness even to the greatest evils. Basahin nyo po reply ni Yidda helpful po siya about evils in morality. Thanks.
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