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Did God create evil/devil?

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by vril on Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:49 am

Ateo wrote:


Bakit magka-iba ang content ng verse ng NIV ni Fred as KJV ni Vril? Was this verse so embarassing that the newer NIV tried to doctor it? Just curious.

beats me. confused

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:15 am

Ateo wrote:


Bakit magka-iba ang content ng verse ng NIV ni Fred as KJV ni Vril? Was this verse so embarassing that the newer NIV tried to doctor it? Just curious.

Ateo,

Evil or darkness man ang nakalagay dyan ay hindi masagot ni Vril kung ano ang interpretasyon ng word na 'evil' dyan.

Ito ba ay si satanas mismo or evils of suffering etc.

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by element_115x on Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:13 pm

fredms3 wrote:

Ateo,

Evil or darkness man ang nakalagay dyan ay hindi masagot ni Vril kung ano ang interpretasyon ng word na 'evil' dyan.

Ito ba ay si satanas mismo or evils of suffering etc.

As long as something causes great distress, inconvenience etc. to anyone, as i've stated earlier -- that's classified as evil. Smile Pasok na diyan ang natural calamities, diseases, human induced crimes, etc etc. I think Satan's got nothing to do with the natural disasters and others like it. Naka focus lang si Satan sa mga gawain ng tao methinks. Pag mga sufferings caused by natural calamities si God na responsible dun...

Actually yung term na 'calamity' most often than not ay human construct lamang -- kasi sa case ng earthquakes or volcanic eruptions for example, natural processes na nagaganap sa planet natin ang mga ito, which means being the creator of Earth ay si God ang responsible sa mga ganito. Labas na si Satan sa mga ganito.






Last edited by element_115x on Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by vril on Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:17 pm

fredms3 wrote:

Ateo,

Evil or darkness man ang nakalagay dyan ay hindi masagot ni Vril kung ano ang interpretasyon ng word na 'evil' dyan.

Ito ba ay si satanas mismo or evils of suffering etc.

kaw mag interpret nyan bro..bible yan eh.. lol! maliwanag na sinabi....god created evil!

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:19 pm

element_115x wrote:

As long as something causes great distress, inconvenience etc. to anyone, as i've stated earlier -- that's classified as evil. Pasok na diyan ang natural calamities, diseases, human induced crimes, etc etc. I think Satan's got nothing to do with the natural disasters and others like it. Naka focus lang si Satan sa mga gawain ng tao methinks. Pag mga sufferings caused by natural calamities si God na responsible dun.





I agree with you on that bro. Kaya yung kinota ni vril di rin pumabor sa posisyong God created satan/evil.

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by element_115x on Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:38 pm

MarcCatholic wrote:...Eversince He's aware of the kind of evil that he's "done" that's going to happen in the future if I get your "theology". LOL.

If we think about it, why did God allow the 'snake' AKA Satan to roam around the Garden in the first place to 'lure' the fledglings Adam&Eve, right?

So maybe evil via Satan is part of God's program. But of course, that's just me assuming that God is omniscient. Smile
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by adanedhel on Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:31 pm

Creation po ba yung evil, classified as "thing"? Like pride?
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:00 pm

fredms3 wrote:

Is that answer from Quran bro?

There is no word for word verse in the Quran that affirms it but the Quran clearly emphasized that God is the creator of everything, and everything means everything. So the answer is ultimately YES.

Do you have any logical objection? Feel free to ask fred. The concept of God in Islam is as clear as the brightness of the sun, no vagueness, not like in Christianity I suppose....
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:22 pm

Jewel wrote:

There is no word for word verse in the Quran that affirms it but the Quran clearly emphasized that God is the creator of everything, and everything means everything. So the answer is ultimately YES.

Do you have any logical objection? Feel free to ask fred. The concept of God in Islam is as clear as the brightness of the sun, no vagueness, not like in Christianity I suppose....

Which means to say God has evil in Himself?

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:01 pm

fredms3 wrote:

Which means to say God has evil in Himself?

Nope. When we say that God created evil, it means that evil is not part of God because the creator is necessarily different and distinct from the created.

Thanks.

Let me illustrate this stuff to you:

God created man and has granted free will to man, yes?

so, free will necessitates choices otherwise it would be meaningless, right?

So God give at least two choices for every man, obey or disobey correct?

What God has commanded is good and what he had forbidden is evil, correct?

If you obey him that means you do good, but if you disobey him that means you do evil.

I hope that is clear now.

---------

Here is my counter question: If God did not create evil, who created it?


Thanks
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:34 pm

Jewel wrote:

Nope. When we say that God created evil, it means that evil is not part of God because the creator is necessarily different and distinct from the created.

Thanks.

Let me illustrate this stuff to you:

God created man and has granted free will to man, yes?

so, free will necessitates choices otherwise it would be meaningless, right?

So God give at least two choices for every man, obey or disobey correct?

What God has commanded is good and what he had forbidden is evil, correct?

If you obey him that means you do good, but if you disobey him that means you do evil.

I hope that is clear now.

---------

Here is my counter question: If God did not create evil, who created it?


Thanks

Lucifer created it. Misuse of his free will started it all.


Question:

Can you point where in the Bible (creation history) God seems to have created evil.

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:52 pm

fredms3 wrote:

Lucifer created it. Misuse of his free will started it all.

So we have two creators now, God and Lucifer, oh watta polytheism!

Who created Lucifer, then?


Question: Can you point where in the Bible (creation history) God seems to have created evil


Same in the Quran, there is no clear cut verse, but if you believe that God is the sole creator of everything, and everything means everything, then it is logical to say that God ultimately created evil - unless everything to you means not everything.

I am surprised that you said it is not God who created evil but Lucifer - That means that God is not the sole creator of everything - sounds like magians



Lucifer created it. Misuse of his free will started it all

Didnt you agree with me that God is omniscient therefore he knows everything, did you? Didnt God know before he created lucifer that lucifer will misuse his free will yet God created lucifer?

You have a big logical problem here, i think
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:14 pm

Jewel wrote:

So we have two creators now, God and Lucifer, oh watta polytheism!

Who created Lucifer, then?

[/b]

Same in the Quran, there is no clear cut verse, but if you believe that God is the sole creator of everything, and everything means everything, then it is logical to say that God ultimately created evil - unless everything to you means not everything.

I am surprised that you said it is not God who created evil but Lucifer - That means that God is not the sole creator of everything - sounds like magians


1. Wrong. You can also create evil in you. Does that mean that you are God? That's an impossible dream.

God created Lucifer with the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. That's how God created him. Where's the evil there?

2. What definitely would be your big problem. You believe in something which Quran and the Bible do not even teach.

You can never find God creating evil in the creation history. He can never create things which will contradict His very nature --- Love ---.

What your saying is this: Lucifer does not have free will. He was created as is. ---- An unfair God that He is.


Last edited by fredms3 on Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:45 pm

fredms3 wrote:
1. Wrong. You can also evil in you. Does that mean that you are God? That's an impossible dream.

really dont know how this response relevant to my last response


God created Lucifer with the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. That's how God created him. Where's the evil there?

Didnt answer my question:


"Didnt you agree with me that God is omniscient therefore he knows
everything, did you? Didnt God know before he created lucifer that
lucifer will misuse his free will yet God created lucifer?"


2. What definitely would be your big problem. You believe in something which Quran and the Bible do not even teach.

I disagree! Both the Quran and the Bible agree that God created everything - so what does everything means to you, not everything?


You can never find God creating evil in the creation history. He can never create things which will contradict His very nature --- Love ---

So you are the one limiting God now because according to you there is something that God cant create, and that is evil, a big backfire?

Again, does everything to you means not everything yes or no?

What your saying is this: Lucifer does not have free will. He was created as is. ---- An unfair God that He is.

I never said that lucifer doesnt have free will, in fact he does - that's a strawman my dear. What I clearly said was that God did know before creating lucifer that lucifer will disobey him (do evil).

You did not answer my Question:

Did God know before he created Lucifer that Lucifer will do evil, Yes or No?
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by MarcCatholic on Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:40 am

This is simple. God will not do anything that is not His nature. For example He can't lie but that doesn't mean He is not omnipotent. Now, God is the perfect concept and source of goodness. So when we say He created evil, a perfect contradiction to goodness, then it's a big logical problem. If that's the case, then why blame those people who commit sin wherein He's the one making evil available in the world? As I said, it would be incomplete, and God seems to appear a bokya negosyante, if no one favors to his evil creation. You boast Islam's theology is as bright as the sun. Sorry but I could say Islam's "God" is evil. Peace.
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:52 am

MarcCatholic wrote:This is simple. God will not do anything that is not His nature. For example He can't lie but that doesn't mean He is not omnipotent. Now, God is the perfect concept and source of goodness. So when we say He created evil, a perfect contradiction to goodness, then it's a big logical problem. If that's the case, then why blame those people who commit sin wherein He's the one making evil available in the world? As I said, it would be incomplete, and God seems to appear a bokya negosyante, if no one favors to his evil creation. You boast Islam's theology is as bright as the sun. Sorry but I could say Islam's "God" is evil. Peace.

When interrupt a certain discussion in progress, you read what had been written so we dont roam around the bush okay?

read this post:

Let me illustrate this stuff to you:

God created man and has granted free will to man, yes?

so, free will necessitates choices otherwise it would be meaningless, right?

So God give at least two choices for every man, obey or disobey correct?

What God has commanded is good and what he had forbidden is evil, correct?

If you obey him that means you do good, but if you disobey him that means you do evil.


or let me make an easy illustration to you;


Assume that you are a student and Mr. J is your teacher. He gives you an exam, multiple choice (choose the correct answer)

Of the three choices, one is the correct answer and the other two choices are incorrect.

Now, if you choose the incorrect answer, would you blame your teacher for putting incorrect answers in the choices given? I dont think so. You blame yourself for not choosing the correct answer because your teacher did not force you to choose the incorrect answer, it was your free choice.

So that is very logical.

What is illogical is your understanding that in a given exam, all the choices that the teacher has to put are all correct so that whatever answer you'll choose would be correct - That is a nonsense exam because there is no possibility of getting failed - If I am your teacher, I would not give you an exam, I will just tell you, you passed!

Let me just comment tho about what you said:

God will not do anything that is not His nature. For example He can't lie but that doesn't mean He is not omnipotent.


That is applicable on you because you believe that Jesus who was a man is God. God is infinite while man is finite; you cant have infinite and finite both at the same time because the two are completely contradictory and opposite.

Inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument says James White



Thanks
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:58 pm

Jewel wrote:

really dont know how this response relevant to my last response



Didnt answer my question:


"Didnt you agree with me that God is omniscient therefore he knows
everything, did you? Didnt God know before he created lucifer that
lucifer will misuse his free will yet God created lucifer?"



I disagree! Both the Quran and the Bible agree that God created everything - so what does everything means to you, not everything?



So you are the one limiting God now because according to you there is something that God cant create, and that is evil, a big backfire?

Again, does everything to you means not everything yes or no?



I never said that lucifer doesnt have free will, in fact he does - that's a strawman my dear. What I clearly said was that God did know before creating lucifer that lucifer will disobey him (do evil).

You did not answer my Question:

Did God know before he created Lucifer that Lucifer will do evil, Yes or No?

1. It should have been read: You can also create evil in you. Does that mean that you are God? Not at all.

2.
Who created Lucifer, then?

God created Lucifer with the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. That's how God created him. Where's the evil there?

3.
Didnt you agree with me that God is omniscient therefore he knows
everything, did you? Didnt God know before he created lucifer that
lucifer will misuse his free will yet God created lucifer?"

God knows it. Very clear, Lucifer misused it not God. God did not force lucifer to be what he is now.

Just like you, if you want hell, Allah will not force you the other way right? If Allah will, then scrap free will, it's useless. He can have His way anyway.

Question: Where is evil in Lucifer when God created him?

4
So you are the one limiting God now because according to you there is something that God cant create, and that is evil, a big backfire?

Again, does everything to you means not everything yes or no?

Everything means everything good. God created everything in good state.

Anything evil is not of God simply because it's against His very nature. Goodness has no limitation mi amigo but evil has.


5.
I never said that lucifer doesnt have free will, in fact he does - that's a strawman my dear. What I clearly said was that God did know before creating lucifer that lucifer will disobey him (do evil).


I am surprised that you said it is not God who created evil but Lucifer - That means that God is not the sole creator of everything - sounds like magians

Study very well your post mi amigo and see who committed strawman. See also your contradiction.

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by vril on Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:15 pm

He who creates evil is to blame..Since god created evil, he is to blame. So the next time you see a child being raped...blame god.

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:54 pm

vril wrote:He who creates evil is to blame..Since god created evil, he is to blame. So the next time you see a child being raped...blame god.

Lucifer created evil in Himself. He himself is to blame. Like him, you can create evil in you. Do you blame God for evil thing that you do? Think a lot vril before uttering such an absurd statement.

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:41 pm

fredms3 wrote:Lucifer created evil in Himself. He himself is to blame. Like him, you can create evil in you. Do you blame God for evil thing that you do? Think a lot vril before uttering such an absurd statement.

@vril

He who creates evil is to blame..Since god created evil, he is to blame.
So the next time you see a child being raped...blame god.

both of you are wrong.

The rapist is to be blamed and not satan nor God, simply because the rapist has free choice, to do that evil or not to do it - there is no coercion, it was a free choice.

Everyone is responsible for his deeds - you dont blame anyone for your wrong doings.


@Fred, if you blame satan for the evil deeds of the people then no one will go to hell because everybody would blame satan - that's wrong.

Yes satan may tempt you but it is still you who will make the decision freely - it's a test for your faith.

In the example which I gave to marc, the teacher cant be blamed for the mistakes of the student in the exam if the student chose the incorrect answers among the options which the teachers had provided.
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:06 pm

fredms3 wrote:

1. It should have been read: You can also create evil in you. Does that mean that you are God? Not at all.



God created Lucifer with the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. That's how God created him. Where's the evil there?


God knows it. Very clear, Lucifer misused it not God. God did not force lucifer to be what he is now.

Just like you, if you want hell, Allah will not force you the other way right? If Allah will, then scrap free will, it's useless. He can have His way anyway.

Question: Where is evil in Lucifer when God created him?


Everything means everything good. God created everything in good state.

Anything evil is not of God simply because it's against His very nature. Goodness has no limitation mi amigo but evil has.

Gotcha!

So God knows that Lucifer will do evil before he was created, yet God still created him - that means, you are agreeing to me that ultimately, it was God who created evil.

It is as if you bring a mad dog in the plaza, and you know very well that this mad dog will bite anyone; who should the people blame, the mad dog or you who brought the mad dog?

I think, that's clear now
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:18 am

Jewel wrote:

Gotcha!

So God knows that Lucifer will do evil before he was created, yet God still created him - that means, you are agreeing to me that ultimately, it was God who created evil.

It is as if you bring a mad dog in the plaza, and you know very well that this mad dog will bite anyone; who should the people blame, the mad dog or you who brought the mad dog?

I think, that's clear now

No.

If Lucifer were not given the free will to decide between evil and good then i will agree that indeed God created evil.

Wrong example ---- the dog has no intellect and will. Incomparable at the very least.

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by MarcCatholic on Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:34 am

Jewel wrote:

When interrupt a certain discussion in progress, you read what had been written so we dont roam around the bush okay?

read this post:




or let me make an easy illustration to you;


Assume that you are a student and Mr. J is your teacher. He gives you an exam, multiple choice (choose the correct answer)

Of the three choices, one is the correct answer and the other two choices are incorrect.

Now, if you choose the incorrect answer, would you blame your teacher for putting incorrect answers in the choices given? I dont think so. You blame yourself for not choosing the correct answer because your teacher did not force you to choose the incorrect answer, it was your free choice.

So that is very logical.

What is illogical is your understanding that in a given exam, all the choices that the teacher has to put are all correct so that whatever answer you'll choose would be correct - That is a nonsense exam because there is no possibility of getting failed - If I am your teacher, I would not give you an exam, I will just tell you, you passed!

Let me just comment tho about what you said:



That is applicable on you because you believe that Jesus who was a man is God. God is infinite while man is finite; you cant have infinite and finite both at the same time because the two are completely contradictory and opposite.

Inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument says James White



Thanks


Okay sorry naman kowya at na-excite ako mag-reply. Ahehehe.


Anyway, about your exam analogy. It's not fair because the intensity of evil is not just about those wrong answers. And, it doesn't define the whole situation of evil when compared as a wrong answer in an exam. Bias as it is since evil is wrongfully put in the place of a mistake and if I get your premise that would seem to appear that I agree to your explanation and I ended up being trapped with your logic. You see, evil is a different stuff for if really God "created" this, He seems to be a Mafia who's toying at people wherein if a person does good, it's for him, and if it's evil, it's still for Him...because He just created it in the first place. Either way he benefits if I get your point. Of course, give credit to the "creator". LOL. Ok here's the point. We may refer evil as the thing, wherein it is "not". Just like darkness, it's not really there but you see it. It's the absence of light. So that goes the same thing to evil. It's the absence of goodness, the absence of God yet God allowed it, not created it. If not, then we are all robots who do not serve God by choice but by obligation.


I agree with James White with that statement. It's applicable for everybody. For you. Very Happy
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Amp'd on Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:38 am

fredms3 wrote:
Wrong example ---- the dog has no intellect and will. Incomparable at the very least.

I will have to agree na medyo sablay po ang comparison. Compare nyo naman po kasi ang characteristics ng isang anghel sa isang baliw na aso. God created Lucifer as a beautiful creature pero yung baliw na aso may defect clown.

Yung evil na meron kay Lucifer was a result of his agency and not because God created evil in him. alien
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by MarcCatholic on Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:49 am

Jewel wrote:

Gotcha!

So God knows that Lucifer will do evil before he was created, yet God still created him - that means, you are agreeing to me that ultimately, it was God who created evil.

It is as if you bring a mad dog in the plaza, and you know very well that this mad dog will bite anyone; who should the people blame, the mad dog or you who brought the mad dog?

I think, that's clear now


I can't think of a term that describes failure of comparison like this Kowya Jewel. Like what you did to exam, it may shed some similarities but the capacities of the objects should be also well equated for us to agree in an example situation. Mad dog. Parang nakahanap ka lang ng medyo tumpak na halimbawa, pero hindi naman talaga. Very Happy


Well I guess I already answered you that God allowed evil kasi ayaw nya tayo maging robot. Ano naman kung nakita nya maging ganun ang gagawin ng mga tao because of free will afterall He's sovereign and His divine Will can't be thwarted no matter how people try to destroy God's plan.
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

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