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Did God create evil/devil?

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:10 am

Amp'd wrote:

I will have to agree na medyo sablay po ang comparison. Compare nyo naman po kasi ang characteristics ng isang anghel sa isang baliw na aso. God created Lucifer as a beautiful creature pero yung baliw na aso may defect clown.

Yung evil na meron kay Lucifer was a result of his agency and not because God created evil in him. alien

Tsek, tsek, tsek!

I dont know why a simple analogy cant be understood.

The point in the analogy which I gave is about God's foreknowledge about the would be evil of Lucifer. God knew before he created Lucifer that lucifer would do evil, YET, He still created Lucifer. Had God did not create Lucifer, or any other being that He know that would do evil, then there would have been any evil at all.

So the point is about God's foreknowledge, not about the comparison between lucifer and the mad dog, that's a very poor analysis heheheh
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:12 am

fredms3 wrote:

No.

If Lucifer were not given the free will to decide between evil and good then i will agree that indeed God created evil.

Wrong example ---- the dog has no intellect and will. Incomparable at the very least.

Tsek, tsek, tsek!

I dont know why a simple analogy cant be understood.

The point in the analogy which I gave is about God's foreknowledge about
the would be evil of Lucifer. God knew before he created Lucifer that
lucifer would do evil, YET, He still created Lucifer. Had God did not
create Lucifer, or any other being that He know that would do evil, then
there would have been any evil at all.

So the point is about God's foreknowledge, not about the comparison
between lucifer and the mad dog, that's a very poor analysis heheheh


additional:


You still have 2 creators now fred, God and lucifer, so you end up polytheism hehhehehe
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:28 am

MarcCatholic wrote:


I can't think of a term that describes failure of comparison like this Kowya Jewel. Like what you did to exam, it may shed some similarities but the capacities of the objects should be also well equated for us to agree in an example situation. Mad dog. Parang nakahanap ka lang ng medyo tumpak na halimbawa, pero hindi naman talaga. Very Happy

I already explained that it is not about the mad dog and lucifer comparison - it is about God's foreknowledge that lucifer would do evil yet he created lucifer. It is not about the free will of lucifer.

Just imagine the reverse of it - God knew before he created lucifer that lucifer would do evil - after lucifer has been created, in his free will, he choose to do good instead of evil - So God's expectation/foreknowledge would turn out to be false - That's ludicrous hehhehe


Well I guess I already answered you that God allowed evil kasi ayaw nya tayo maging robot. Ano naman kung nakita nya maging ganun ang gagawin ng mga tao because of free will afterall He's sovereign and His divine Will can't be thwarted no matter how people try to destroy God's plan
.

But that is not the point that we are discussing here marc. we are answering fred's question WHO created evil/devil -

He agrees to me that God created the devil which you call lucifer, but he doesnt agree that God ultimately created evil because he said that it was the creation of God who created it - He didnt realize the logic that if God did not create the devil lucifer or any other being who would do evil, there would be no evil to talk about.

If God did not create the devil, would there be evil yes or no ?? Answer that please...
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by vril on Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:24 am

fredms3 wrote:

Lucifer created evil in Himself. He himself is to blame. Like him, you can create evil in you. Do you blame God for evil thing that you do? Think a lot vril before uttering such an absurd statement.

god created lucifer....he is still to blame..^_~

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by vril on Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:26 am

Jewel wrote:

@vril



both of you are wrong.

The rapist is to be blamed and not satan nor God, simply because the rapist has free choice, to do that evil or not to do it - there is no coercion, it was a free choice.

Everyone is responsible for his deeds - you dont blame anyone for your wrong doings.


@Fred, if you blame satan for the evil deeds of the people then no one will go to hell because everybody would blame satan - that's wrong.

Yes satan may tempt you but it is still you who will make the decision freely - it's a test for your faith.

In the example which I gave to marc, the teacher cant be blamed for the mistakes of the student in the exam if the student chose the incorrect answers among the options which the teachers had provided.

god created the rapist..so he is to blame.

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by element_115x on Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:02 pm

Ganito lang yan...

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by element_115x on Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:14 pm

Jewel wrote:...If God did not create the devil, would there be evil yes or no ?? Answer that please...

In a nutshell, it would seem God needed evil to exist, but He can't seem to accept that the responsibility for it should rest on Him (because of His 'goody' image)... so a fall guy was required. God knew that Lucifer would turn sour later on from being a 'good' angel, and become the perfect vessel for evil... assuming that God is omniscient .

So if God is responsible for evil, why can't some people accept the fact that that's tantamount to being the originator, ergo 'creator' of such? Razz


Last edited by element_115x on Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Ateo on Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:15 pm

I like, I like.

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:02 pm

Jewel wrote:

Tsek, tsek, tsek!

I dont know why a simple analogy cant be understood.

The point in the analogy which I gave is about God's foreknowledge about
the would be evil of Lucifer. God knew before he created Lucifer that
lucifer would do evil, YET, He still created Lucifer. Had God did not
create Lucifer, or any other being that He know that would do evil, then
there would have been any evil at all.

So the point is about God's foreknowledge, not about the comparison
between lucifer and the mad dog, that's a very poor analysis heheheh


additional:


You still have 2 creators now fred, God and lucifer, so you end up polytheism hehhehehe

Your analogy needs focus jewel.

God created lucifer and gifted him with free will -- choosing to obey Him and not to. That's how simple it is.

God knew from beforehand that lucifer will fall, but what God can do with that --- lucifer chose to disobey Him. His disobedience cost him his beauty and friendship with God and lo! he became satan.

Polytheism? I don't think so... God is the God of light, satan is the master of darkness.


Last edited by fredms3 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:19 pm

vril wrote:

god created lucifer....he is still to blame..^_~

If lucifer is a robot then i agree, God is to blame.

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:35 pm

fredms3 wrote:
If lucifer is a robot then i agree, God is to blame.

Fred, just answer this question for us:

You agreed that God knew that Lucifer will surely choose to do evil when he will be created, yet God decided to create him; Question: Had God did not create Lucifer, would there be evil, yes or no?
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:38 pm

vril wrote:
god created the rapist..so he is to blame.

Wrong! the rapist is to be blamed because he chose to do evil despite God's Law. You have your free will, so you are responsible to it.
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:42 pm

element_115x wrote:

In a nutshell, it would seem God needed evil to exist, but He can't seem to accept that the responsibility for it should rest on Him (because of His 'goody' image)... so a fall guy was required. God knew that Lucifer would turn sour later on from being a 'good' angel, and become the perfect vessel for evil... assuming that God is omniscient .

So if God is responsible for evil, why can't some people accept the fact that that's tantamount to being the originator, ergo 'creator' of such? Razz

Jewel wrote:...If God did not create the devil, would there be evil yes or no ?? Answer that please...

I would like fred to answer that question first, then I will post my comment after that.
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by vril on Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:36 pm

fredms3 wrote:

If lucifer is a robot then i agree, God is to blame.

robot or not...god created him...so god is to blame.

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by vril on Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:38 pm

Jewel wrote:

Wrong! the rapist is to be blamed because he chose to do evil despite God's Law. You have your free will, so you are responsible to it.

god created the rapist, the evil and freewill....he is to blame.

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by element_115x on Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:36 pm

Everything boils down to God, coz if He didn't create stuff to begin with (with it's snowball effect and the dynamics of one thing leading to another) -- there will just be an incomprehensible state of nothingness... whatever that means. Razz
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:46 pm

Jewel wrote:

Wrong! the rapist is to be blamed because he chose to do evil despite God's Law. You have your free will, so you are responsible to it.

Your changing direction now jewel

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:57 pm

element_115x wrote:Ganito lang yan...

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"


There's a timetable for that. And God will definitely end satan's reign. We we're created with intellect and free will and God respected that gift. He is not a dictator but He will definitely hand His justice as soon as our journey end.

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:00 pm

vril wrote:

god created the rapist, the evil and freewill....he is to blame.

Without the freewill, who do you think is to be blamed?

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Ateo on Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:59 pm

I think God's worst invention was freewill itself, kasi iyan ang source ng sin ni Adam at ang evil ni Satan.

Bakit nga ba gumawa si God ng FreeWill? For fun? Kasi kung obedient robots tayong lahat, di exciting kay God? Pero sana menos ang suffering, di ba?

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Ateo on Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:00 pm

fredms3 wrote:

Without the freewill, who do you think is to be blamed?

Without freewill, walang religion na tatagal kasi busted lahat. Smile

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by fredms3 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:08 pm

Ateo wrote:

Without freewill, walang religion na tatagal kasi busted lahat. Smile

Paano yun Ateo?

Ang tingin ko naman dyan ay kung alang freewill ay isa lang ang relihiyon. Di tulad ngayon na super dami talaga.

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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by MarcCatholic on Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:43 pm

Kowya Jewel, gusto ko lang po sana puntuhan mo to.


"Okay sorry naman kowya at na-excite ako mag-reply. Ahehehe.


Anyway, about your exam analogy. It's not fair because the intensity of evil is not just about those wrong answers. And, it doesn't define the whole situation of evil when compared as a wrong answer in an exam. Bias as it is since evil is wrongfully put in the place of a mistake and if I get your premise that would seem to appear that I agree to your explanation and I ended up being trapped with your logic. You see, evil is a different stuff for if really God "created" this, He seems to be a Mafia who's toying at people wherein if a person does good, it's for him, and if it's evil, it's still for Him...because He just created it in the first place. Either way he benefits if I get your point. Of course, give credit to the "creator". LOL. Ok here's the point. We may refer evil as the thing, wherein it is "not". Just like darkness, it's not really there but you see it. It's the absence of light. So that goes the same thing to evil. It's the absence of goodness, the absence of God yet God allowed it, not created it. If not, then we are all robots who do not serve God by choice but by obligation.


I agree with James White with that statement. It's applicable for everybody. For you. "



And yes, I believe I answered the question already. God did not create evil but He allowed it. Evil is a creation of God's creature. I don't know the pronouncement of the church about this but I believe I can illustrate it in this way.

Ang computer ay ginawa ng tao. Masasabi mo bang ginawa talaga ito, directly ni God? Hindi diba? Ito'y bunga o gawa ng mga naiisip ng tao. ("Pero, gumamit tayo ng mga bagay para malikha ito from God's creations.) Ngayon, dahil nandito ang evil, ibig sabihin ba si God na talaga ang may pananagutan nito at higit sa lahat may likha nito? Hindi kundi ang mga nilikha Niya. Of course, aware siya darating ang evil as the "effect" pero ano naman sa kanya ngayon?

About your exam analogy. Let me add this realization of mine just a while ago. You see, a student doesn't want to commit wrong answers so basically there's no free will there to choose the other items unless he wills to fail the exam. All students are trying their best to get the right answers and get high scores. Now what about evil? Those people who commit evil willed it. They chose it. Thanks and Peace.
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by Jewel on Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:44 am

fredms3 wrote:

Your changing direction now jewel

No im not, I've been consistent since the beginning. I believe you are the one changing direction my friend fred because you seem to agree with me that tho God knew before he created Lucifer that Lucifer would become a devil, yet God decided to create him - so the author/creator/originator is none other than God - posters here agree with me that it is so even the atheist - what I differ from them is that God is to be blamed because tho God knew that Lucifer would become a devil, yet He did not force Lucifer to do so, it was Lucifer's free and willful choice, and you agreed with me on that, right?

So in summary, the atheists agreed with me that the author of it all is God, and you as a theist agreed with me that God is not to be blamed for creating Lucifer/devil.

I think I have supports from both atheist's and theist's sides

Thanks for supporting my argument/view
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Re: Did God create evil/devil?

Post by vril on Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:36 am

fredms3 wrote:

Without the freewill, who do you think is to be blamed?

none but god. he started everything and should take the blame. had he not created all this....none of this evil have happened.

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