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Is Allah present in hell as He is in heaven?

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Is Allah present in hell as He is in heaven?

Post by fredms3 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:26 am

Same with the other topic Jewel. This is my time to ask and yours to explain the topic thru Quran.

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Re: Is Allah present in hell as He is in heaven?

Post by fredms3 on Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:42 am

Waiting........It's okey with me Jewel, i understand it's Ramadan.

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Re: Is Allah present in hell as He is in heaven?

Post by bench on Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:27 pm

what do you mean by present fred?

present PHYSICALLY?

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Re: Is Allah present in hell as He is in heaven?

Post by Jewel on Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:43 pm

oo nga linawin mo fred kasi pumapasok ka sa Islamic theology.

Bawal kasi ang haka-haka sa Islam lalo na sa tawheed baka shirk ang nasa isip mo.

What do you mean by present daw tanong ni bench, physically or what?

Iniimagine kasi namin na ang God na tinutukoy mo ay si Jesus christ, a Palestinian man, 5'8 in height, skinny, and have a hail on his head, OR the father who looks like a very huge OLD MAN as drawn in your churches.

Linawin muna natin if you dont mind.


Thanks
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Re: Is Allah present in hell as He is in heaven?

Post by fredms3 on Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:17 pm

Whether physically or spiritually ay present si Allah sa impierno tulad ng sa langit? Ito mga bro ang nais kong malaman.

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Re: Is Allah present in hell as He is in heaven?

Post by Jewel on Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:08 pm

fredms3 wrote:Whether physically or spiritually ay present si Allah sa impierno tulad ng sa langit? Ito mga bro ang nais kong malaman.


You cant have it "either" fred. It is because you can never arrive/get a correct answer if the question is wrong in and of itself.

So, klaruhin mo muna ang tanong mo bago namin sasagutin.


waiting.../
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Re: Is Allah present in hell as He is in heaven?

Post by fredms3 on Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:44 pm

Jewel wrote:


You cant have it "either" fred. It is because you can never arrive/get a correct answer if the question is wrong in and of itself.

So, klaruhin mo muna ang tanong mo bago namin sasagutin.


waiting.../

Ok. Punta muna tayo sa Physical presence ni Allah sa impierno...

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Re: Is Allah present in hell as He is in heaven?

Post by Jewel on Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:31 pm

fredms3 wrote:

Ok. Punta muna tayo sa Physical presence ni Allah sa impierno...

As expected, mali nga ang concept mo fred About God in Islam - yan ang reason kung bakit kinaklarify muna namin ang tanong mo.


unang una, Allah is not a Physical being, so nasaan ang question ng physical presence dyan? (laysaka mithlihi shay 4:11)

Pangalawa, the whole creation cant contain God (Allah) because Allah is greater than all; kaya namin sinasabi na Allahu Akbar, short phrase ng Allahu akbar wa min kulli shay' ibig sabihin God is the greatest of all.

In short, Allah is not physically present in heaven or in hell - Allah is outside of His creation - yan ang dapat mong malaman sa Islamic theology fred.

Kalimutan mo muna dito yung God na mukhang matandang malaking mama kasi shirk yan dito sa Islam Basketball

Ang nasa heaven at hell ay mga angels of God, hindi God mismo. Very Happy
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Re: Is Allah present in hell as He is in heaven?

Post by fredms3 on Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:15 am

Jewel wrote:

As expected, mali nga ang concept mo fred About God in Islam - yan ang reason kung bakit kinaklarify muna namin ang tanong mo.


unang una, Allah is not a Physical being, so nasaan ang question ng physical presence dyan? (laysaka mithlihi shay 4:11)

Pangalawa, the whole creation cant contain God (Allah) because Allah is greater than all; kaya namin sinasabi na Allahu Akbar, short phrase ng Allahu akbar wa min kulli shay' ibig sabihin God is the greatest of all.

In short, Allah is not physically present in heaven or in hell - Allah is outside of His creation - yan ang dapat mong malaman sa Islamic theology fred.

Kalimutan mo muna dito yung God na mukhang matandang malaking mama kasi shirk yan dito sa Islam

Ang nasa heaven at hell ay mga angels of God, hindi God mismo.

Ok, Allah is a Spiritual Being.

Allah is outside of His creation, which means to say He is not spiritually present in hell right?

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Re: Is Allah present in hell as He is in heaven?

Post by bench on Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:09 pm

He can SEE everything.

If He can see, it does not mean that He is PHYSICALLY present in that place.

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Re: Is Allah present in hell as He is in heaven?

Post by Jewel on Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:08 pm

fredms3 wrote:

Ok, Allah is a Spiritual Being.
It depends what you mean by the word "spiritual being" - if you mean Allah is a spirit, then the answer is a big big NO - Allah created all spirits, therefore Allah is not a spirit because the creator is different from his creation.

Allah is laysaka mithlihi shay' (there is nothing like or comparable to him)

But if you mean by spiritual being as UNSEEN, then yes, Allah is unseen, that is why we dont make paintings and drawings of him because that would surely be a false imagination.

Just like your God Jesus on the crucifixes, I dont beleive that Jesus did really look like that because prophets are the best among the people in appearance and in character - not an ugly skinny man, right?


Allah is outside of His creation, which means to say He is not spiritually present in hell right?

Again, you should define your term "spiritual" because it has got more that one connotation in Islam.

This is what can I say for now - Allah is Al Alim - the all knowing (omniscient) so he knows every atom of his creation so to speak, and all places, every movement, every word uttered, everything, and everywhere, anytime, at the same time.

Allah is also Al Baseer - The all seeing - he sees every atom of his creation so to speak, and all places, every
movement, everything, and everywhere, anytime, at
the same time.


So Allah HIMSELF is not in hell, and he is not in heaven also.


Next question.
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Re: Is Allah present in hell as He is in heaven?

Post by fredms3 on Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:55 am

Jewel wrote:It depends what you mean by the word "spiritual being" - if you mean Allah is a spirit, then the answer is a big big NO - Allah created all spirits, therefore Allah is not a spirit because the creator is different from his creation.

Allah is laysaka mithlihi shay' (there is nothing like or comparable to him)

But if you mean by spiritual being as UNSEEN, then yes, Allah is unseen, that is why we dont make paintings and drawings of him because that would surely be a false imagination.

Just like your God Jesus on the crucifixes, I dont beleive that Jesus did really look like that because prophets are the best among the people in appearance and in character - not an ugly skinny man, right?.

Does this mean that the spirit created by Allah can be seen? And Allah though a spiritual being cannot be seen?

Again, you should define your term "spiritual" because it has got more that one connotation in Islam.

This is what can I say for now - Allah is Al Alim - the all knowing (omniscient) so he knows every atom of his creation so to speak, and all places, every movement, every word uttered, everything, and everywhere, anytime, at the same time.

Allah is also Al Baseer - The all seeing - he sees every atom of his creation so to speak, and all places, every
movement, everything, and everywhere, anytime, at
the same time.


So Allah HIMSELF is not in hell, and he is not in heaven also.

How Allah as Omnipotent (All-poweful)?

If Allah is neither in heaven nor in hell, then where is He before and after the creation?

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Re: Is Allah present in hell as He is in heaven?

Post by Jewel on Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:55 pm

fredms3 wrote:
Does this mean that the spirit created by Allah can be seen? And Allah though a spiritual being cannot be seen?

I dont really understand this question; what I said was that Allah is not a spirit. Spirits are created by Allah, including the holy spirit. Of course spirits can see each other, but they cant see Allah, while Allah can see them all.


How Allah as Omnipotent (All-poweful)?

If Allah is neither in heaven nor in hell, then where is He before and after the creation?


Allah is All powerful - in the Quran he says that whenever he intends to do something he will just say "Be!" and it is (it will come in to existence) - This of course excludes absurdities in any shape or form -

Absurdity !!!

before the creation, there was no place/location to talk about, so how would the question of "WHERE" possible there???

After the creation, there is now place to talk about - and Allah is above the heavens, he is beyond his creation but he sees and knows every aspect of his creation (Al Baseer, Al Alim)

Next question....
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Re: Is Allah present in hell as He is in heaven?

Post by fredms3 on Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:20 pm

Ano ang comment mo rito jewel?

Surah al-Mulk (67:16)

Pickthall: Have ye taken security from Him Who is IN the heaven

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Re: Is Allah present in hell as He is in heaven?

Post by Jewel on Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:29 pm

fredms3 wrote:Ano ang comment mo rito jewel?

Surah al-Mulk (67:16)

Pickthall: Have ye taken security from Him Who is IN the heaven

Ay ang Arabic nyan ay فِي السَّمَاءِ na pweding above the heavens or in the heaven. Sa ibang verses ganito ang nakasulat



Surely, your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six
Days and then rose over (Istawa) the Throne, arranging the affair [of
all things]. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after He
permits. That is Allah, your Lord; so worship Him (alone). Then, will
you not remember? [10:3]

Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that you can see. Then, He Istawa (rose above) the Throne. [13:2}

A revelation from Him (Allah) Who has created the earth and high
heavens. The Most Beneficent (Allah) Istawa (rose over) the (Mighty)
Throne.” [20:4-5]





at ang throne of Allah is above the heavens


Ibn Abbaas (d. 68H): They reject the Book. If I was to grab the hair of
one of them, I would cut it off. Indeed Allaah the Mighty and Majestic
was above His Throne before He created anything, then He created the
creation.

Imaam Maalik bin Anas (d. 179H): Allaah is above the heaven, and His
knowledge is in every place, nothing escapes it. ["Mukhtasar al-Uluww"
of adh-Dhahabi (p. 140)]


Logically speaking, Allah (God) already existed before he created the heavens, so it is clear that he doesnt live in heaven.


anyway, ito ang tafseer ng verse na sinitas mo: ( tafseer ibn Katheer)



(67:16) Do you feel secure that He Who is in the
heaven *25
will not cause the earth to cave in with you,
and then suddenly it will begin to rock
violently?




*25This does not mean that Allah lives in the
heavens
, but it has been so said because man
naturally looks up to the heaven whenever he
wants to turn to Allah, raises his hands
heavenward in prayer and implores Allah turning
his eyes up to heaven whenever he finds himself
helpless in an affliction.
Then whenever a
calamity befalls him suddenly, he says it has
descended from heaven; whenever something
unusual happens, he says it has come from
heaven; and he calls the Books revealed by Allah
as heavenly Books. Accordingly to a tradition-in
Abu Da'ud, a person came before the Holy Prophet
with a black slave-girl and said: "It has become
obligatory on me to set a slave free; can 1 set
this slave-girl free? Holy Prophet asked the
slave-girl, "Where is Allah?" She pointed
heavenward with her forger. The Holy Prophet
asked, "Who am I?" She first pointed towards him
and then towards the heaven, by which she
obviously meant to say: "You have come from
Allah." Thereupon the Holy Prophet said: "Set
her free; she is a believer." (A story closely
resembling this has been narrated in Mu'watta,
Muslim and Nasa'i also). About Hadrat Khawla
bint Tha`Ibah.. Hadrat 'Umar once said to the
people: "She is the lady whose complaint was
heard above the seven heavens" (In E.N. 2 of
Surah al-Mujadalah, we have given full details
concerning this). All this clearly shows that it
is natural with man that whenever he thinks of
God, his mind turns to the heaven above and not
to the earth below. In view of this very thing
the words man fis-samaa. (He Who is in the
heaven) have been used about Allah. There is no
room here for any doubt that the Qur'an regards
AIIah Almighty as living in the heaven. In fact,
there cannot be any basis for this doubt, for in
the very beginning of this Surah Al-hulk, it has
been stated: "He Who created seven heavens, one
above the other", and in Al-Baqarah it has been
said "You will face Allah in whatever direction
you turn your face." (v : I15)
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Re: Is Allah present in hell as He is in heaven?

Post by fredms3 on Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:44 am

What 'heaven' are we talking here?

Btw, what do you call the place where holy people will go after the judgement?

Ay ang Arabic nyan ay فِي السَّمَاءِ na pweding above the heavens or in the heaven. Sa ibang verses ganito ang nakasulat



Surely, your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six
Days and then rose over (Istawa) the Throne, arranging the affair [of
all things]. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after He
permits. That is Allah, your Lord; so worship Him (alone). Then, will
you not remember? [10:3]

Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that you can see. Then, He Istawa (rose above) the Throne. evelation from Him (Allah) Who has created the earth and high
[color=red]heavens
. The Most Beneficent (Allah) Istawa (rose over) the (Mighty)
Throne.” [20:4-5]

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Re: Is Allah present in hell as He is in heaven?

Post by Jewel on Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:08 pm

fredms3 wrote:What 'heaven' are we talking here?

Good question/clarification. Depending on the context - heaven in arabic (sama') sometimes means "above, or sky, ect" . It also means the seven heavens created by God as mentioned in the Quran. Between the lowest heaven and the one above it is (a
distance of) five hundred years. The thickness of each heaven is equal to 500 years journey. Above the seven heavens is Paradise. The Paradise is of 100 levels, each level is equal to the distance of the earth and the lowest of the seven heavens. Above paradise is water, and above the water is the throne of God (arsh) which is the largest among all the creations of God, and above the throne (arsh) is God the greatest of all that exist.

Btw, what do you call the place where holy people will go after the judgement?

It's called paradise - so paradise is above the heavens - And God is not in heaven, but he is above the throne.
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Re: Is Allah present in hell as He is in heaven?

Post by fredms3 on Fri Sep 03, 2010 8:52 pm

Jewel wrote:

Ay ang Arabic nyan ay فِي السَّمَاءِ na pweding above the heavens or in the heaven. Sa ibang verses ganito ang nakasulat



Surely, your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six
Days and then rose over (Istawa) the Throne, arranging the affair [of
all things]. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after He
permits. That is Allah, your Lord; so worship Him (alone). Then, will
you not remember? [10:3]

Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that you can see. Then, He Istawa (rose above) the Throne. [13:2}

A revelation from Him (Allah) Who has created the earth and high
heavens. The Most Beneficent (Allah) Istawa (rose over) the (Mighty)
Throne.” [20:4-5]





at ang throne of Allah is above the heavens


Ibn Abbaas (d. 68H): They reject the Book. If I was to grab the hair of
one of them, I would cut it off. Indeed Allaah the Mighty and Majestic
was above His Throne before He created anything, then He created the
creation.

Imaam Maalik bin Anas (d. 179H): Allaah is above the heaven, and His
knowledge is in every place, nothing escapes it. ["Mukhtasar al-Uluww"
of adh-Dhahabi (p. 140)]


Logically speaking, Allah (God) already existed before he created the heavens, so it is clear that he doesnt live in heaven.


anyway, ito ang tafseer ng verse na sinitas mo: ( tafseer ibn Katheer)



(67:16) Do you feel secure that He Who is in the
heaven *25
will not cause the earth to cave in with you,
and then suddenly it will begin to rock
violently?




*25This does not mean that Allah lives in the
heavens
, but it has been so said because man
naturally looks up to the heaven whenever he
wants to turn to Allah, raises his hands
heavenward in prayer and implores Allah turning
his eyes up to heaven whenever he finds himself
helpless in an affliction.
Then whenever a
calamity befalls him suddenly, he says it has
descended from heaven; whenever something
unusual happens, he says it has come from
heaven; and he calls the Books revealed by Allah
as heavenly Books. Accordingly to a tradition-in
Abu Da'ud, a person came before the Holy Prophet
with a black slave-girl and said: "It has become
obligatory on me to set a slave free; can 1 set
this slave-girl free? Holy Prophet asked the
slave-girl, "Where is Allah?" She pointed
heavenward with her forger. The Holy Prophet
asked, "Who am I?" She first pointed towards him
and then towards the heaven, by which she
obviously meant to say: "You have come from
Allah." Thereupon the Holy Prophet said: "Set
her free; she is a believer." (A story closely
resembling this has been narrated in Mu'watta,
Muslim and Nasa'i also). About Hadrat Khawla
bint Tha`Ibah.. Hadrat 'Umar once said to the
people: "She is the lady whose complaint was
heard above the seven heavens" (In E.N. 2 of
Surah al-Mujadalah, we have given full details
concerning this). All this clearly shows that it
is natural with man that whenever he thinks of
God, his mind turns to the heaven above and not
to the earth below. In view of this very thing
the words man fis-samaa. (He Who is in the
heaven) have been used about Allah. There is no
room here for any doubt that the Qur'an regards
AIIah Almighty as living in the heaven. In fact,
there cannot be any basis for this doubt, for in
the very beginning of this Surah Al-hulk, it has
been stated: "He Who created seven heavens, one
above the other", and in Al-Baqarah it has been
said "You will face Allah in whatever direction
you turn your face." (v : I15)

Why didn't the Sura 67:16 be read as "He who is in His throne?" That's the right term there rather than 'heaven' which creates confusion and seemingly contradiction, right?

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Re: Is Allah present in hell as He is in heaven?

Post by Jewel on Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:01 pm

fredms3 wrote:

Why didn't the Sura 67:16 be read as "He who is in His throne?" That's the right term there rather than 'heaven' which creates confusion and seemingly contradiction, right?

You did not read the tafseer my friend; here it is:

.....because man
naturally looks up to the heaven
whenever he
wants to turn to Allah, raises his hands
heavenward
in prayer and implores Allah turning
his eyes up to heaven whenever
he finds himself
helpless in an affliction. Then whenever a
calamity
befalls him suddenly, he says it has
descended from heaven;
whenever something
unusual happens, he says it has come from
heaven
....


God is communicating to man to the lowest level on the state of man's knowledge of that time - this is to make his message understandable to everyone.

The point is that God is not in heaven, he is above the mighty throne - that's the final and clear answer from Islamic theology.

Next question...
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Re: Is Allah present in hell as He is in heaven?

Post by fredms3 on Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:10 pm

Jewel wrote:

You did not read the tafseer my friend; here it is:

.....because man
naturally looks up to the heaven
whenever he
wants to turn to Allah, raises his hands
heavenward
in prayer and implores Allah turning
his eyes up to heaven whenever
he finds himself
helpless in an affliction. Then whenever a
calamity
befalls him suddenly, he says it has
descended from heaven;
whenever something
unusual happens, he says it has come from
heaven
....


God is communicating to man to the lowest level on the state of man's knowledge of that time - this is to make his message understandable to everyone.

The point is that God is not in heaven, he is above the mighty throne - that's the final and clear answer from Islamic theology.

Next question...

Tafseer? Is this the explanation for Sura 67:16?

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Re: Is Allah present in hell as He is in heaven?

Post by Jewel on Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:15 am

fredms3 wrote:

Tafseer? Is this the explanation for Sura 67:16?

Yes, that is the summary exegesis about the issue that you wanted to be clarified in that verse; God is not in heaven, but he is above the heavens because he is above the throne and the throne is above the heavens.

next question....
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