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Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by vril on Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:33 am

Jewel wrote:

They are not considered as "major denomination" in islam friend vril - shi'ism is but a cult. They only compose of of about 10-12% of the total Muslim population. Moreover, this 10-12% is subdivided into hundreds of sub-cults. You might have heard of Ismaeliyah, Jahmiya, 7ners, 12vers, alawiyah, ect - these are all shi'ah subcults.


Shi'ism is rejected totally in Islam because they are idolaters. The Alawiyah for example believes that God became a man and manifested in the person of Ali bin Abi Talib - Sounds a copycat to trinitarianism. Nonsense, because had this been true then it must have been written in the Quran.

Some of them hate Angel Gabriel because they believe that Angel Gabriel is a bad angel because God told him to give the revelation to Ali, yet he disobeyed and gave it to Muhammad instead - Nonsense, because it implies that God's plan became a big mess.

Some of them believes in Prophet Muhammad's Prophethood but they attributed to their imams the attributes of God - idolatry; They believe that their imams knows every atom of the creation and that they know where and when they will die - That's nonsense - Only God knows everything. Even the prophets did not know everything, so how can they attribute such divine attributes to their imam?

Moreover, they believe that only their imams can understand the quran, so whatever they do, dont question it because they know what you dont know - nonsense - blind following to imams - and it would mean that God made his message confusing to people, thus God should be blamed for people's mistakes because he did not make his message clear.


The shi'ah cult was founded by a Jew named Abdullah bin Saba' aka Ibn Aswad - He was the one who undermined Islam when they were not able to stop Islam from spreading - He pretended to have converted to Islam. His first lecture was this:


Ibn Aswad:
Oh you Muslims, do you believe that Jesus pbuh did not die?

Crowd: Yes we do (it is clearly written in the Quran)

Ibn Aswad: Who is greater, Jesus or Muhammad?

Crowd:
Muhammad!

Ibn Aswad
: If that is so, then Muhammad did not die and he will come back like Jesus


That's nonsense because Prophet Muhammad was buried in Madinah and his grave is still there and all his disciples were witnesses to it.




Thanks.

Thanks Jewel.

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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by Jewel on Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:21 pm

vril wrote:
Thanks Jewel.

You are welcome vril
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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by harballah on Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:34 pm

vril wrote:
paki-google mo na lang paps...."Thighing"

Brad hindi po kasi sa google nakukuha ang aral namin kundi sa Quran, hadith at sunnah ng propheta, kapag mayroon kang nailatag basi diyan sa nabanggit ko ay puwede po kitang sagutin ngunit kung basi lang po sa googles hindi po tayo makakausad.

Malinaw po itong sinabi ko sa inyo.

harballah wrote:
pakilatag mo lang iyong eksaktong nabanggit sa pinagkunan mong websites para sa ganoon ay ma-verify natin sa hadith kung ano nga ba talaga iyan.


Thanks and peace!

Harballah

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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by vril on Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:09 pm

harballah wrote:

Brad hindi po kasi sa google nakukuha ang aral namin kundi sa Quran, hadith at sunnah ng propheta, kapag mayroon kang nailatag basi diyan sa nabanggit ko ay puwede po kitang sagutin ngunit kung basi lang po sa googles hindi po tayo makakausad.

Malinaw po itong sinabi ko sa inyo.




Thanks and peace!

Harballah

But do you have any idea what 'thighing ' means?

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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by harballah on Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:23 pm

vril wrote:

But do you have any idea what 'thighing ' means?

May ideya po ako kaya lang gusto kung makita kung ano nga ba ang natagpuan mo tungkol diyan, it's about sex ba?

Yes or No?

Kung Yes pakita mo sa akin at ilalatag ko sa iyo iyong ideya na sinasabi ko.

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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by vril on Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:42 pm

harballah wrote:

May ideya po ako kaya lang gusto kung makita kung ano nga ba ang natagpuan mo tungkol diyan, it's about sex ba?

Yes or No?

Kung Yes pakita mo sa akin at ilalatag ko sa iyo iyong ideya na sinasabi ko.


Lolx..ok..here's one from Yahoo.

"Thighing" is an Islamic practice still followed today even in Muslim communities in the U.S. and Britain:

Regarding the practice of "thighing", the masterbating between the legs of a female infant or actually sodomizing her, Islamic clerics have this to say:

Pedophilia decrees from www.islamic-fatwa.net

Question 1809

After the permanent committee for the scientific research and fatwahs (religious decrees) reviewed the question forwarded by the grand scholar of the committee with reference number 1809 issued on 3/5/1453 and 7/5/1421 (Islamic calendar)

Question: ‘It has become widespread these days, and especially during weddings, the habit of mufa’khathat of the children. (mufa’khathat - literally translated, it means “placing between the thighs” which means placing the male member between the thighs of a child).

What is the opinion of scholars, knowing full well that the prophet, the peace of Allah be upon him, also practiced the “thighing” of Aisha - the mother of believers - may Allah be pleased with her ?

Answer: After studying the issue, the committee has answered as follows:

As for the prophet, his thighing his fiancée Aisha when she was six years of age and not able to consummate the relationship was due to her small age. That is why the Prophet used to place his male member between her thighs and massage it, as the prophet had control of his male member not like other men.

Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, The Supreme Leader of Iran, the Shia Grand Ayatollah, 1979-89 said in his official statements:

"A man can quench his sexual lusts with a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. Sodomizing the baby is halal (allowed by sharia). If the man penetrates and damages the child, then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl’s sister. It is better for a girl to marry when her menstruation starts, and at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven."

Khomeini, "Tahrirolvasyleh" fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990

“It is not illegal for an adult male to 'thigh' or enjoy a young girl who is still in the age of weaning; meaning to place his penis between her thighs, and to kiss her.”

Ayatu Allah Al Khumaini's "Tahrir Al wasila" p. 241, issue number 12

"Young boys or girls in full sexual effervescence are kept from getting married before they reach the legal age of majority. This is against the intention of divine laws. Why should the marriage of pubescent girls and boys be forbidden because they are still minors, when they are allowed to listen to the radio and to sexually arousing music?"

"The Little Green Book" "Sayings of the Ayatollah Khomeini", Bantam Books

MUHAMMAD, THE PROPHET OF ISLAM

PART 1 MECCA

An Arab is regarded as an old man, a sheik, when he is fifty.

Muhammad married Aisha when she was six years old in Mecca and she joined him in Medina three years later when he was 53. He began having sex with Aisha when she was nine years old and still playing with dolls.

This is the original story told by the ONLY valid biographers of Muhammad and Islam, Ibn Ishaq and Tabari, and the hadiths of Bukhari and Muslim. Refer also to the works of the Qur’an commentators Ibn Kathir and Ibn Qayyim. (Ibn Kathir, The Life of the Prophet Muhammad (Al-Sira al-Nabawiyya), Volume II, translated by professor Trevor Le Gassick, Garnet Publishing Limited, UK. The Center for Muslim Contribution to Civilization, 2000. pp. 93-94)
(Ibn Qayyim Al-Juaziyyah, Zad-ul Ma’ad fi Hadyi Khairi-l ‘Ibad (Provisions for the Hereafter, From the Guidance of Allah’s Best Worshipper) translated by Jalal Abualrub, [Madinah Publishers & Distributors, December 2000] Volume I, pp. 157-158)

Muhammad said that he had dreamed of Aisha before demanding her from her father, and his own brother in Islam, Abu Bakr, claiming special ‘prophets rights’ when Abu Bakr was reluctant to give her to him.

Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 235: Narrated 'Aisha: That the Prophet said to her, "You have been shown to me twice in my dreams. I saw you pictured on a piece of silk and someone said to me, 'This is your wife.' When I uncovered the picture, I saw that it was yours. I said, 'If this is from Allah, it will be done."

Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 18: Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother!"

The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

Marriage to a female already offered to another was illegal in Arab law. Abu Bakr had already arranged for Aisha to marry Djubayr Mutim.

Muhammad married ‘A’isha in Mecca when she was a child of six and lived with her in Medina when she was nine or ten. She was the only virgin that he married. Her father, Abu Bakr, married her to him and the apostle gave her four hundred dirhams. (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasulullah (The Life of Muhammad) translated by Alfred Guillaume [Oxford University Press, p. 792)
Tabari VII:7 “The Prophet married Aisha in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadija. At the time she was six.”

Tabari IX:128 “When the Prophet married Aisha, she was very young and not yet ready for consummation.” [The History of Al-Tabari: The Foundation of the Community] translated by M.V. McDonald annotated by W. Montgomery Watt [State University of New York Press, Albany 1987], Volume VII, pp. 6-7) (The History of Al-Tabari: The Last Years of the Prophet, translated and annotated by Ismail K. Poonawala [State University of New York Press, Albany 1990], Volume IX, pp. 129-130)

Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236: Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.
Source(s):
http://islam-the-monster-unchained.blogs…

There are other sites that discusses this islamic practice of 'Thighing'. The above pretty much summarizes what I want to know about 'Thighing'.


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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by harballah on Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:02 pm

Vril, siguro alam mo na ang katuruan ng Sunni at Shia.

Nakita mo ba doon sa pinagkunan mo kung sino ang nagsabi niyan thighing.



Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, The Supreme Leader of Iran, the Shia Grand Ayatollah, 1979-89 said in his official statements:

Shia po si Ayatollah at hindi po nila tanggap ang hadith, so papaano mo gagamitin iyan sa isang Sunni na tulad namin.

Sa mga inilalatag mong hadith diyan ay mayroon bang nabanggit na thighing ?

Ito po ang inakala kung ideya na akala ko ay patungkol diyan.

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: Umarah ibn Ghurab said that his paternal aunt narrated to him that she asked Aisha: What if one of us menstruates and she and her husband have no bed except one? She replied: I relate to you what the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) had done. One night he entered (upon me) while I was menstruating. He went to the place of his prayer, that is, to the place of prayer reserved (for this purpose) in his house. He did not return until I felt asleep heavily, and he felt pain from cold. And he said: Come near me. I said: I am menstruating. He said: Uncover your thighs. I, therefore, uncovered both of my thighs. Then he put his cheek and chest on my thighs and I lent upon he until he became warm and slept. (Book #1, Hadith #0270)

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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by Jewel on Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:07 pm

Vril,

www.islamic-fatwa.net

Is a shi'ah cult site ; they even practice temporary marriage (mut'ah) so the thighing that you are saying is normal for them. The source that they mentioned is not authentic.

http://islam-the-monster-unchained.blogs…

is an anti Islam site, unreliable source.

We dont follow ayatullah khomini - he is a shiah.


sources mentioned:

Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236: Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He
stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was
a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she
was nine years old.

Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 18: Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet asked
Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your
brother!"

The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."


these ahadith are authentic, but there are no mentioned of thighing.


The arabs back then and even until now had the tradition of marrying their children thru parental arrangement even during infancy.

However, the marriage could only be consummated when the girl reaches her puberty as evidenced by her menstrual period.

Islam does not specify an age limit for marriage consummation because girls' menses does not depend on their age but their hormonal growth and changes. there are girls who already reaches 12 or 15 but still do not have their menses yet, while there are 9 year old girls who has their menses already.

So the marriage of the Prophet to Aisha was of two purpose:

1. Set an example as to what is the minimum requirement for a girl to get married; the requirement is not the age but puberty (menses)

2. For the preservation of the Prophet's sunnah esp. for women because the rulings for Islamic jurisprudence for women is best understood by the one who actually experienced it, considering the fact that all of the wives of Prophet Muhammad were old women and thus, no way for them to convey the sunnah for women. Most of them died one after another after the Prophet died, except Aisha who related to us all the Islamic rulings for women affairs.

Try to read sahih bukhari and sahih Muslim, every matter related to women issues is narrated thru the authority of Aisha -

Watta brilliant plan by the Prophet - actually not by the Prophet but by God, the all wise.


Thanks
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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by vril on Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:14 pm

Jewel wrote:Vril,

www.islamic-fatwa.net

Is a shi'ah cult site ; they even practice temporary marriage (mut'ah) so the thighing that you are saying is normal for them. The source that they mentioned is not authentic.

http://islam-the-monster-unchained.blogs…

is an anti Islam site, unreliable source.

We dont follow ayatullah khomini - he is a shiah.


sources mentioned:

Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236: Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He
stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was
a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she
was nine years old.

Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 18: Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet asked
Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your
brother!"

The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."


these ahadith are authentic, but there are no mentioned of thighing.


The arabs back then and even until now had the tradition of marrying their children thru parental arrangement even during infancy.

However, the marriage could only be consummated when the girl reaches her puberty as evidenced by her menstrual period.

Islam does not specify an age limit for marriage consummation because girls' menses does not depend on their age but their hormonal growth and changes. there are girls who already reaches 12 or 15 but still do not have their menses yet, while there are 9 year old girls who has their menses already.

So the marriage of the Prophet to Aisha was of two purpose:

1. Set an example as to what is the minimum requirement for a girl to get married; the requirement is not the age but puberty (menses)

2. For the preservation of the Prophet's sunnah esp. for women because the rulings for Islamic jurisprudence for women is best understood by the one who actually experienced it, considering the fact that all of the wives of Prophet Muhammad were old women and thus, no way for them to convey the sunnah for women. Most of them died one after another after the Prophet died, except Aisha who related to us all the Islamic rulings for women affairs.

Try to read sahih bukhari and sahih Muslim, every matter related to women issues is narrated thru the authority of Aisha -

Watta brilliant plan by the Prophet - actually not by the Prophet but by God, the all wise.


Thanks

Thanks Jewel. It's pretty clear 'thighing' must have been practiced by Shi'as. On another note, do you share the same teaching with Shi'ah that Mohammed married Aesha at 6 years old and he consumated this marriage when Aesha was 9 years old?

Appreciate your response.

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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by Jewel on Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:32 pm

vril wrote:

Thanks Jewel. It's pretty clear 'thighing' must have been practiced by Shi'as. On another note, do you share the same teaching with Shi'ah that Mohammed married Aesha at 6 years old and he consumated this marriage when Aesha was 9 years old?

Appreciate your response.

Yeah because there are authentic ahadith for that.

And by consummation in that historical context means that Aisha r.a. started to live in the prophetic house when she reached her age of puberty; she was 9 year old that time. However the claim for thighing is a wishy washy claim because if Aisha r.a. has already reached her age of puberty, then normal sexual intercourse is allowable, so how is that "thighing" stuff be done?

Masturbation is makrooh or haram in Islam:



Hadith - Muslim, #3233


'Abdullah (b. Mas'ud)
reported that Allah's Messenger

said to us:
O young
men, those among you who can support a wife should marry, for it restrains
eyes (from casting evil glances) and preserves one from immorality; but he
who cannot afford it should observe fast, for it is a means of controlling
the sexual desire.






Hadith - Bukhari 3:129, Narrated
'Alqama




While I was walking with 'Abdullah

he said, "We were in the company of the Prophet

and he said, 'He who can afford
to marry should marry, because it will help him refrain from looking at other
women, and save his private parts from committing illegal sexual relation;
and he who cannot afford to marry is advised to fast, as fasting will diminish
his sexual power.
' "







Agreed upon by the two sahih sources. Please be careful with those pseudo-Islamic websites because they are known for mixing up authentic and fabricated ahadith in order to undermine Islam.






Thanks
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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by vril on Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:26 am

Jewel wrote:

Yeah because there are authentic ahadith for that.

And by consummation in that historical context means that Aisha r.a. started to live in the prophetic house when she reached her age of puberty; she was 9 year old that time. However the claim for thighing is a wishy washy claim because if Aisha r.a. has already reached her age of puberty, then normal sexual intercourse is allowable, so how is that "thighing" stuff be done?

Masturbation is makrooh or haram in Islam:



Hadith - Muslim, #3233


'Abdullah (b. Mas'ud)
reported that Allah's Messenger

said to us:
O young
men, those among you who can support a wife should marry, for it restrains
eyes (from casting evil glances) and preserves one from immorality; but he
who cannot afford it should observe fast, for it is a means of controlling
the sexual desire.






Hadith - Bukhari 3:129, Narrated
'Alqama




While I was walking with 'Abdullah

he said, "We were in the company of the Prophet

and he said, 'He who can afford
to marry should marry, because it will help him refrain from looking at other
women, and save his private parts from committing illegal sexual relation;
and he who cannot afford to marry is advised to fast, as fasting will diminish
his sexual power.
' "







Agreed upon by the two sahih sources. Please be careful with those pseudo-Islamic websites because they are known for mixing up authentic and fabricated ahadith in order to undermine Islam.






Thanks

I believe Mohammed was 50 years old that time and did he have sex with Aesha when she was 9 years old?

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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by Jewel on Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:42 pm

vril wrote:
I believe Mohammed was 50 years old that time and did he have sex with Aesha when she was 9 years old?

There is no exact date narrated authentically that they had sex at those respective ages but let's say they did, is there anything wrong with having sex with your wife?
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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by vril on Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:44 pm

Jewel wrote:

There is no exact date narrated authentically that they had sex at those respective ages but let's say they did, is there anything wrong with having sex with your wife?

None if they are probably not a minor. 9 years of age is still considered a minor and morally wrong to have sex with them. In fact it's considered child abuse/corruption and pedophilia.

Is this allowed in your religion?

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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by Jewel on Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:35 pm

vril wrote:None if they are probably not a minor. 9 years of age is still considered a minor and morally wrong to have sex with them. In fact it's considered child abuse/corruption and pedophilia.

Is this allowed in your religion?

As I have explained before, the minimum requirement is at least the wife must reach the age of puberty.

Who gave this age limit by the way, people? BTW Pedophilia has nothing to do with marriage. In pedophilia, it is all about sexual lust, no marriage at all.

Remember what I said about the wisdom why Prophet Muhammad married Aisha:

1. Set a ruling on the limit on what stage can a woman engage in marriage (based on attainment of puberty, because age is not constant to all women due to different hormonal growth and changes)

2. Preservation of the Prophetic/Islamic rulings/jurisprudence about women.



During their time 9 year old girl is not like the state of 9 year old girl today. Imagine for example one of the Disciples of Prophet Muhammad Usama bin Zaid who was the commander of the entire Muslim army in a military expedition and he was 12-14 years old then. Can you put a12 years old boy army general today?

So read it in the light of their era to avoid interpreting stuff out of their proper historical context.
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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by vril on Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:17 am

Jewel wrote:

As I have explained before, the minimum requirement is at least the wife must reach the age of puberty.

Who gave this age limit by the way, people? BTW Pedophilia has nothing to do with marriage. In pedophilia, it is all about sexual lust, no marriage at all.

Remember what I said about the wisdom why Prophet Muhammad married Aisha:

1. Set a ruling on the limit on what stage can a woman engage in marriage (based on attainment of puberty, because age is not constant to all women due to different hormonal growth and changes)

2. Preservation of the Prophetic/Islamic rulings/jurisprudence about women.



During their time 9 year old girl is not like the state of 9 year old girl today. Imagine for example one of the Disciples of Prophet Muhammad Usama bin Zaid who was the commander of the entire Muslim army in a military expedition and he was 12-14 years old then. Can you put a12 years old boy army general today?

So read it in the light of their era to avoid interpreting stuff out of their proper historical context.

I think 9 year old children in those days is pretty much the same with 9 year old children of our time. 9 years old is 9 years old. Would you allow your 9 year old daughter to get married and have sex with a 50 year old man?

And so if a 50 year old man marries a 9 year old girl and have sex with her will not make it pedophilia? Is this how you view marriage and pedophilia?

Please take no offense as this is one of the things that put your prophet in a bad light. And I hope you understand.

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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by Jewel on Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:13 am

vril wrote:I think 9 year old children in those days is pretty much the same with 9 year old children of our time. 9 years old is 9 years old.

That was what I think too before, but after researching, I found out that I was wrong. No 9 years old girl today experiences monthly menses.

I found out that what determines the puberty age of a girl is the start of her menses not the age. One of my female classmates in high school hadnt experience her menses yet but she was already 15-16 year old that time, while my sister had her menses when she was 12.

The age is not really the determinant for women. Once they have their menses, that would indicate that they are ready to bear children (capable of pregnancy).



Would you allow your 9 year old daughter to get married and have sex with a 50 year old man?

Well, as of nowadays, I havent known of 9 year old having menses. We can only allow to marry our girls of they have their menses. That doesnt mean of course that once they have their menses we should let them get married. The point is that, there is a minimum requirement as to when can a woman get married in relation to her young age. We cant say 12, 15, 17, 18, ect because these are not reliable numbers. Every state has different age limit for girls to get married, so which is which?


And so if a 50 year old man marries a 9 year old girl and have sex with her will not make it pedophilia? Is this how you view marriage and pedophilia?

As I said, the purpose of their marriage is not about sex; it could be part of it later on since it is normal for a married couple - why didnt you consider the reasons which I cited in my previous post; you concentrate on sex, is that how you view marriage, or is that your goal for getting marriage?

Read the article for pedophilia and see if that includes marriage.

Please take no offense as this is one of the things that put your prophet in a bad light. And I hope you understand.

Dont worry, no offense at all. I know that this issue will be the objective of your questioning about Aisah's r.a. age - it's a common issue thrown by Christian missionaries to Islam when they cant find any fault and inconsistency in Islamic doctrines and teachings and reverts in Islam is growing rapidly. This worries them too much because most of the reverts are from Christianity, their church members - less member, less income right?

In fact, I am thankful to you for asking me about this issue because it gives me the opportunity to explain our side. So dont worry asking anything about Islam. If it has an authentic basis, I would give my response such as like this, however, if it has no basis or the basis is from a weak Islamic source we tell you that it is not authentic.


Thanks
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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by vril on Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:03 pm

Jewel wrote:

That was what I think too before, but after researching, I found out that I was wrong. No 9 years old girl today experiences monthly menses.

I found out that what determines the puberty age of a girl is the start of her menses not the age. One of my female classmates in high school hadnt experience her menses yet but she was already 15-16 year old that time, while my sister had her menses when she was 12.

The age is not really the determinant for women. Once they have their menses, that would indicate that they are ready to bear children (capable of pregnancy).



Well, as of nowadays, I havent known of 9 year old having menses. We can only allow to marry our girls of they have their menses. That doesnt mean of course that once they have their menses we should let them get married. The point is that, there is a minimum requirement as to when can a woman get married in relation to her young age. We cant say 12, 15, 17, 18, ect because these are not reliable numbers. Every state has different age limit for girls to get married, so which is which?




As I said, the purpose of their marriage is not about sex; it could be part of it later on since it is normal for a married couple - why didnt you consider the reasons which I cited in my previous post; you concentrate on sex, is that how you view marriage, or is that your goal for getting marriage?

Read the article for pedophilia and see if that includes marriage.



Dont worry, no offense at all. I know that this issue will be the objective of your questioning about Aisah's r.a. age - it's a common issue thrown by Christian missionaries to Islam when they cant find any fault and inconsistency in Islamic doctrines and teachings and reverts in Islam is growing rapidly. This worries them too much because most of the reverts are from Christianity, their church members - less member, less income right?

In fact, I am thankful to you for asking me about this issue because it gives me the opportunity to explain our side. So dont worry asking anything about Islam. If it has an authentic basis, I would give my response such as like this, however, if it has no basis or the basis is from a weak Islamic source we tell you that it is not authentic.

Thanks

Mohammed's marriage to a 6 year old child has moral implications. Even so consummating this marriage when the girl is 9 years old. This does not show a good example for humanity to follow. He could have showed a perfect example by protecting children from early marriage and sex one way or another...would you agree?

Let me post an excerpt from a Christian writer regarding this issue that will show what I also wanted to say:

As one sharp Christian writer and apologist stated:

... it isn’t necessary for a lawgiver to institute laws by performing actions that create a precedent. In other words, Muhammad didn’t need to marry a young girl in order establish a law about marrying girls who had reached puberty. Muhammad, as Islam’s lawgiver, could have simply issued a decree. For instance, Muhammad allowed husbands to beat their wives. Was it necessary for Muhammad to beat his wives in order to establish this as a law? Certainly not. Similarly, when an American lawmaker says that killing someone in self-defense is acceptable, no one argues that the lawmaker must go out and kill someone in self-defense if his law is to stand. Hence, the argument that Muhammad needed to marry a young girl to establish puberty as the appropriate age for marriage completely fails. (David Wood, Was Muhammad a Pedophile? An Examination of Muhammad's Relationship with a Nine-Year-Old Girl; 1; 2)

Current moral standards dictates having sex with a 9 year old even under marriage is pedophilia.

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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by harballah on Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:20 pm

Vril, iyan ba ay galing sa Diyos o galing sa tao ?

Pakita ka ng galing sa Diyos, sa bibliya man sa Quran na bawal makipag-sex sa batang nasa puberty stage na.

Ako kaya kung makapagpakita ng talata na inutusan ng Diyos mo sa bibliya na asawahin ang batang babae.


Sana po pakatandaan ang paliwanag ni kapatid na jewel kasi ang linaw-linaw po iyan.




Jewel wrote:

As I have explained before, the minimum requirement is at least the wife must reach the age of puberty.

Who gave this age limit by the way, people? BTW Pedophilia has nothing to do with marriage. In pedophilia, it is all about sexual lust, no marriage at all.

Remember what I said about the wisdom why Prophet Muhammad married Aisha:

1. Set a ruling on the limit on what stage can a woman engage in marriage (based on attainment of puberty, because age is not constant to all women due to different hormonal growth and changes)

2. Preservation of the Prophetic/Islamic rulings/jurisprudence about women.



During their time 9 year old girl is not like the state of 9 year old girl today. Imagine for example one of the Disciples of Prophet Muhammad Usama bin Zaid who was the commander of the entire Muslim army in a military expedition and he was 12-14 years old then. Can you put a12 years old boy army general today?

So read it in the light of their era to avoid interpreting stuff out of their proper historical context.

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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by Jewel on Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:34 am

vril wrote:

Mohammed's marriage to a 6 year old child has moral implications. Even so consummating this marriage when the girl is 9 years old. This does not show a good example for humanity to follow. He could have showed a perfect example by protecting children from early marriage and sex one way or another...would you agree?

Again, you did not pay attention to what I said. It was part of their custom that time to marry their children even before reaching the age of puberty but its consummation is when the girl reaches his puberty age, and science has proven this to be true; that girls having their menses are capable of bearing children. Moreover, there is no authentic record that they had sex immediately after Aisha entered in to the prophetic house. Furthermore, I have explained already the objective of this marriage in connection to Islamic jurisprudence on women. Had this marriage did not take place, there would be no clear rulings on women affair in Islam - Thus, the objective of this marriage is not about sex.

Who would narrate the rulings if Islam about women had this marriage did not happen, please tell me?


Let me post an excerpt from a Christian writer regarding this issue that will show what I also wanted to say:

As one sharp Christian writer and apologist stated:

... it isn’t necessary for a lawgiver to institute laws by performing actions that create a precedent. In other words, Muhammad didn’t need to marry a young girl in order establish a law about marrying girls who had reached puberty. Muhammad, as Islam’s lawgiver, could have simply issued a decree. For instance, Muhammad allowed husbands to beat their wives. Was it necessary for Muhammad to beat his wives in order to establish this as a law? Certainly not. Similarly, when an American lawmaker says that killing someone in self-defense is acceptable, no one argues that the lawmaker must go out and kill someone in self-defense if his law is to stand. Hence, the argument that Muhammad needed to marry a young girl to establish puberty as the appropriate age for marriage completely fails. (David Wood, Was Muhammad a Pedophile? An Examination of Muhammad's Relationship with a Nine-Year-Old Girl; 1; 2)

As I told you, Christian missionaries had this issue propagated against Prophet Muhammad since they cant find any fault in Islam. However, they got embarrassed in public debates when they are confronted with the historical background of this marriage.


  • Ask them, what is the Christian ruling as to what age should a girl be allowed to marry NO answer
  • Ask Them, what is the Christian ruling on post natal women in relation to wife-husband relation - No answer
  • Ask Them, what is the Christian ruling on women having menses - No answer
  • Ask Them, what is the Christian ruling on sex between a wife and her husband - No answer

Many, many things about women they dont have religious rulings, what you'll hear from them is I dont know, i dont know - Why did their God tell them about it ???





Current moral standards dictates having sex with a 9 year old even under marriage is pedophilia.


That's a cut and paste statement - I was asking: Is having sex with your legal wife who has attained the age of puberty a pedophilia?

No cut and paste please
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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by Jewel on Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:42 am

vril wrote:
Let me post an excerpt from a Christian writer regarding this issue that will show what I also wanted to say:

As one sharp Christian writer and apologist stated:

... it isn’t necessary for a lawgiver to institute laws by performing actions that create a precedent. In other words, Muhammad didn’t need to marry a young girl in order establish a law about marrying girls who had reached puberty. Muhammad, as Islam’s lawgiver, could have simply issued a decree. For instance, Muhammad allowed husbands to beat their wives. Was it necessary for Muhammad to beat his wives in order to establish this as a law? Certainly not. Similarly, when an American lawmaker says that killing someone in self-defense is acceptable, no one argues that the lawmaker must go out and kill someone in self-defense if his law is to stand. Hence, the argument that Muhammad needed to marry a young girl to establish puberty as the appropriate age for marriage completely fails. (David Wood, Was Muhammad a Pedophile? An Examination of Muhammad's Relationship with a Nine-Year-Old Girl; 1; 2)

Current moral standards dictates having sex with a 9 year old even under marriage is pedophilia.

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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by vril on Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:56 am

harballah wrote:Vril, iyan ba ay galing sa Diyos o galing sa tao ?

Pakita ka ng galing sa Diyos, sa bibliya man sa Quran na bawal makipag-sex sa batang nasa puberty stage na.

Ako kaya kung makapagpakita ng talata na inutusan ng Diyos mo sa bibliya na asawahin ang batang babae.


Sana po pakatandaan ang paliwanag ni kapatid na jewel kasi ang linaw-linaw po iyan.






You're saying god is a proponent of marriage and sex to young children? Short of saying he and islam promotes pedophilia. That sounds scary to me.

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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by vril on Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:09 am

Jewel wrote:

Again, you did not pay attention to what I said. It was part of their custom that time to marry their children even before reaching the age of puberty but its consummation is when the girl reaches his puberty age, and science has proven this to be true; that girls having their menses are capable of bearing children. Moreover, there is no authentic record that they had sex immediately after Aisha entered in to the prophetic house. Furthermore, I have explained already the objective of this marriage in connection to Islamic jurisprudence on women. Had this marriage did not take place, there would be no clear rulings on women affair in Islam - Thus, the objective of this marriage is not about sex.

Who would narrate the rulings if Islam about women had this marriage did not happen, please tell me?




As I told you, Christian missionaries had this issue propagated against Prophet Muhammad since they cant find any fault in Islam. However, they got embarrassed in public debates when they are confronted with the historical background of this marriage.


  • Ask them, what is the Christian ruling as to what age should a girl be allowed to marry NO answer
  • Ask Them, what is the Christian ruling on post natal women in relation to wife-husband relation - No answer
  • Ask Them, what is the Christian ruling on women having menses - No answer
  • Ask Them, what is the Christian ruling on sex between a wife and her husband - No answer

Many, many things about women they dont have religious rulings, what you'll hear from them is I dont know, i dont know - Why did their God tell them about it ???







That's a cut and paste statement - I was asking: Is having sex with your legal wife who has attained the age of puberty a pedophilia?

No cut and paste please

Sex with children is pedophilia. Let's not make it more complicated. And have you ever wonder if a young child will say yes to marry a 50 year old man? Is this hard to see? Looks to me Aesha was forced to marry the old man. Moreso have sex with a 50 year old man. have you ever wonder what it;s like for a child to have sex at that age with an old man? I'm sure you will find it easy to understand this. she was clearly a victim of corruption,. A victim of rape, child abuse and molestation. She was also a victim of conspiracy by Mohammed and Aesha's parents who consented to this.

Funny you should

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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by Jewel on Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:21 pm

vril wrote:

Sex with children is pedophilia. Let's not make it more complicated. And have you ever wonder if a young child will say yes to marry a 50 year old man? Is this hard to see? Looks to me Aesha was forced to marry the old man. Moreso have sex with a 50 year old man. have you ever wonder what it;s like for a child to have sex at that age with an old man? I'm sure you will find it easy to understand this. she was clearly a victim of corruption,. A victim of rape, child abuse and molestation. She was also a victim of conspiracy by Mohammed and Aesha's parents who consented to this.

Funny you should

This what makes a research fruitless; the questioner doesnt need an answer and doesnt listen to what is said. Just answer thise question:

Is having sex with your legal wife who has attained the age
of puberty a pedophilia?


Moreover, that marriage resulted a comprehensive Islamic rulings on women: You didnt answer my questions above.

You focus on sex, is that your objective in getting marriage? heheheh
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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by harballah on Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:20 pm

vril wrote:
You're saying god is a proponent of marriage and sex to young children? Short of saying he and islam promotes pedophilia. That sounds scary to me.

Nasagot ka na namin ni Jewel ngayon puwede ikaw naman ang sumagot sa tanong ko.

harballah wrote:
Pakita ka ng galing sa Diyos, sa bibliya man sa Quran na bawal makipag-sex sa batang nasa puberty stage na.

Ako kaya kung makapagpakita ng talata na inutusan ng Diyos mo sa bibliya na asawahin ang batang babae.

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Re: Isang Tanong Isang Sagot (ITIS)...

Post by vril on Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:08 am

Jewel wrote:

This what makes a research fruitless; the questioner doesnt need an answer and doesnt listen to what is said. Just answer thise question:

Is having sex with your legal wife who has attained the age
of puberty a pedophilia?


Moreover, that marriage resulted a comprehensive Islamic rulings on women: You didnt answer my questions above.

You focus on sex, is that your objective in getting marriage? heheheh

Sex with 9 year olds be it under marriage or not is pedophilia. Does this answer your question?

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