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Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by harballah on Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:09 am

RavlaM wrote:
Please harballah, why wont you stop and read my posts and Gordon's post.

The except I posted came from the link posted by Clown, tama ka wala ngang sinabi doon na pinatatawad na ng asawa ng napatay ang kriminal...wala din pong sinabi na hindi niya pinatatawad ang kriminal...

Let me clarify this, if a christian forgives a criminal it does not automatically mean the criminal wont face his crime in court and if convicted guilty should serve sentence.

Brad iyan na nga ang paksa natin ang aral ninyong LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, puwede ba pakipaliwanag kung ano ang kahulugan ng ENEMIES diyan.

Anyway, sabi mo diyan ay kung mapatawad man ng kamag-anak ng biktima ang kriminal ay dapat hatulan parin sa hukuman.

Brad bakit po ganoon, akala ko ba pinatawad na ng kamag-anak ng biktima ang kriminal, bakit pa siya ikukulong kung pinatawad na ito at hindi ba dapat iyong kamag-anak ng biktima ang siyang magsasabi kung ikukulong o hindi ang kriminal No

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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by the700clowns on Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:18 pm

RavlaM wrote:.........................................

Maganda siguro Clown eh inglisin mo na lang para maintindihan ni Gordon.

___

RavlaM, I know that Gordon can understand Filipino (Tagalog) quite well, he engages in Tagalog threads and replies to Tagalog posts in Public Square, of course his replies are in English. I can understand English but I can express myself better in Tagalog, he can understand Tagalog but he can express himself better in English. kaya wag mong problemahin ang usapan namin. Wink
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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by RavlaM on Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:46 pm

harballah wrote:

Brad iyan na nga ang paksa natin ang aral ninyong LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, puwede ba pakipaliwanag kung ano ang kahulugan ng ENEMIES diyan.

Anyway, sabi mo diyan ay kung mapatawad man ng kamag-anak ng biktima ang kriminal ay dapat hatulan parin sa hukuman.

Brad bakit po ganoon, akala ko ba pinatawad na ng kamag-anak ng biktima ang kriminal, bakit pa siya ikukulong kung pinatawad na ito at hindi ba dapat iyong kamag-anak ng biktima ang siyang magsasabi kung ikukulong o hindi ang kriminal No

Harballah naman, sana naman ang argumento natin ay intellectual..
We have explained to you the meaning of a very wonderful verse "love your enemies"

Now your problem is forgiveness:
I already explained this to you and I will explain it again..

We Catholics have no choice but to forgive.
I am sure you will have difficulty understanding this coz your teachings refer forgiveness to letting the criminal go.

In this contemporary time we have plenty of correctional institution for those convicted criminals.

It is so wonderful isn't it, God already knew that we will have this institutions, a place for rehabilitating and correcting criminals.

i hope I have answered your question...we can close this thread now.
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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by harballah on Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:35 pm

O siya tutal naman medyo lumalayo na talaga ang usapin dito at dahil kaibigan kita ay isasara ko na ang thread na ito at hayaan na natin ang mambabasa at huhusga sa naging talakayan natin, pero hintayin muna natin si clowns bago ko isara upang magkaroon muna ng konklusyon ang pag-uusap na ito.

Thanks and peace!

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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by RavlaM on Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:51 pm

Thanks Harby..I hope Mr. 700 Clowns appreciated our arguments.
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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by the700clowns on Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:15 pm

harballah wrote:O siya tutal naman medyo lumalayo na talaga ang usapin dito at dahil kaibigan kita ay isasara ko na ang thread na ito at hayaan na natin ang mambabasa at huhusga sa naging talakayan natin, pero hintayin muna natin si clowns bago ko isara upang magkaroon muna ng konklusyon ang pag-uusap na ito.

Thanks and peace!

___

thanks bro...

kung ang meaning sa kanila ng "love your enemies" e pwede rin palang labanan ang kaaway kung kinakailangan e di sige respetuhin natin yan kahit hindi logical at tugma sa pag sinampal sa isang cheek e ibigay pati yung other cheek, and of course the word "love" e hindi tugma sa pgapatay sa kaaway kahit pa during self defense dahil during that time e hindi mo sya love. but again gaya ng sabi ko e respetuhin natin ang meaning nyan para sa kanila.

kung ganyan ang meaning nila e siguro naman e agree sila na fighting is sometimes necessary-which is the principle of Islam, therefore e wag na nilang tutuligsain ang "violence" sa Quran dahil fighting is violence.
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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by Gordon on Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:21 pm

[quote="harballah"]

If there is a CONTINUING GRAVE THREAT, then I would be justified in using deadly force. But to plan a premeditated killing of one who raped my wife when no threat exists anymore would be a SIN in the eyes of God, and MURDER in the eyes of Philippine law.
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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by Gordon on Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:27 pm

[quote="the700clowns"]

The concept of offering the other cheek is more relevant issue of returning insult with insult or disrespect with disrespect.

That's why I quit BARM. I don't want to stoop down to their level of insulting behaviour or sumali sa bastusan.
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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by Gordon on Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:32 pm

Please consider a car accident. Your car got hit from behind. You forgive the driver at fault but the driver at fault still has to pay the auto repair bill.

A basic christian principle is to that for one to be forgiven, one must learn to forgive. "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy" (Beatitudes )
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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by the700clowns on Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:54 pm

Gordon wrote:Please consider a car accident. Your car got hit from behind. You forgive the driver at fault but the driver at fault still has to pay the auto repair bill.

A basic christian principle is to that for one to be forgiven, one must learn to forgive. "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy" (Beatitudes )

___

Gordon, kung pinapatawad mo e hindi mo pagbabayarin, kung pinatawad ka ng Diyos e hindi ka maiimpyerno. bakit paparusahan ang rapist kung pinatawad na ito?! sasabihin nyo ang govt ang magpaparusa dito... are christians allowed to become policemen and soldiers, judges, district attorneys, mayors, presidents etc knowing that they will go againsts Christian principle of forgiving your enemies kung gagawin nila ang duties nila?!
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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by Gordon on Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:09 pm

the700clowns wrote:

___

Gordon, kung pinapatawad mo e hindi mo pagbabayarin, kung pinatawad ka ng Diyos e hindi ka maiimpyerno. bakit paparusahan ang rapist kung pinatawad na ito?! sasabihin nyo ang govt ang magpaparusa dito... are christians allowed to become policemen and soldiers, judges, district attorneys, mayors, presidents etc knowing that they will go againsts Christian principle of forgiving your enemies kung gagawin nila ang duties nila?!

Good comment. That's is the reason why I prefer to converse in english because I feel that that language is "richer" and I feel it is more suitable for use in intellectual discussions.

In english there is a deeper word that depicts "forgiveness" but has an altogether different level of meaning; and that word word is "condonation" (to ignore the offense). You are correct in understanding that the tagalog word " pinatawad" effectively means a "condonation" of an act, or effectively forgetting that the whole event happened at all. However that is not the meaning Catholicism is using

In this discussion, the term "forgiveness" as far as the catholic context is concerned ; implies that one can forgive a criminal without CONDONING the act of the criminal.

Now as far as policemen, soldiers, judges, DA's, mayor, and president are concerned; Please bear in mind that they are ACTING FOR AND IN BEHALF OF THE STATE OR GOVERNMENT and not in their personal identities.

Unless perhaps for the judge and president, none of the others you have mentioned have the discretionary powers to grant pardon. And if any pardon is enacted, it is based on STATE LAW and not religious law. The judge or president will pardon (or not) based on established legal guidelines.
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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by harballah on Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:29 pm

Gordon wrote:

If there is a CONTINUING GRAVE THREAT, then I would be justified in using deadly force. But to plan a premeditated killing of one who raped my wife when no threat exists anymore would be a SIN in the eyes of God, and MURDER in the eyes of Philippine law.

Sa madaling salita brad na ang sagot mo sa inilatag ni clowns ay idedepensa mo ang asawa mo at walang problema kung mapatay mo ang kalaban mo, ganoon po ba?

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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by harballah on Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:31 pm

RavlaM wrote:Thanks Harby..I hope Mr. 700 Clowns appreciated our arguments.

Walang anuman brad ravlam, pasensiya kana gusto ko na sanang isara kasi nagbigay na ng konklusyon si clowns pero parang may balak pa yatang makipagtalakayan si gordon kaya hayaan muna natin na mailatag niya ang stand niya sa topic at kapag wala na siyang ibang sasabihin ay doon ko na isasara ang thread.

Thanks and peace!

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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by RavlaM on Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:15 am

harballah wrote:

Sa madaling salita brad na ang sagot mo sa inilatag ni clowns ay idedepensa mo ang asawa mo at walang problema kung mapatay mo ang kalaban mo, ganoon po ba?

Harballah, I think you missed the last part of what Gordon said.
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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by harballah on Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:52 am

RavlaM wrote:

Harballah, I think you missed the last part of what Gordon said.

Alin parte brad, sagot ba niya para sa akin.....tuloy ba ang usapin dito kasi hindi na natin isasara kasi okey lang sa akin.

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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by Gordon on Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:05 am

harballah wrote:

Sa madaling salita brad na ang sagot mo sa inilatag ni clowns ay idedepensa mo ang asawa mo at walang problema kung mapatay mo ang kalaban mo, ganoon po ba?


Again. Is your wife at risk of death? If so, the use of deadly force is reasonable in the defense of your wife in light of a continuing deadly threat. However, if you knock the the rapist unconscious with a blow to the head, and thereby stop the assault, but proceed futher to add more blows to the head with the intent of killing the rapist would constitute murder.

Please research the concept of a "Just War". Here is a good site for you to read:

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/just_war.htm

"
On the other hand, unjust anger seeks to do evil to another for its own sake, the harm to body or soul that it entails. While one may desire, and employ, physical force for the sake of correction, restraint of evil and restoring justice, even if it entails injury and death, one may never desire it for its own sake. To desire some slight injury for an evil motive would be venially sinful. To desire grave injury or death would be gravely sinful. A Christian may never, of course, desire the damnation of the evil doer. Charity requires that we will the good, especially the ultimate good, salvation, for every human being. Unfortunately, the entertainment media often promotes an image of anger and vengeance which is closer to blood lust than to justice






As with all moral acts the use of force to obtain justice must comply with three conditions to be morally good.

First, the act must be good in itself. The use of force to obtain justice is morally licit in itself.

Second, it must be done with a good intention, which as noted earlier must be to correct vice, to restore justice or to restrain evil, and not to inflict evil for its own sake.

Thirdly, it must be appropriate in the circumstances.


An act which may otherwise be good and well motivated can be sinful by reason of imprudent judgment and execution.
"
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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by harballah on Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:46 pm

Gordon wrote:

Again. Is your wife at risk of death? If so, the use of deadly force is reasonable in the defense of your wife in light of a continuing deadly threat. However, if you knock the the rapist unconscious with a blow to the head, and thereby stop the assault, but proceed futher to add more blows to the head with the intent of killing the rapist would constitute murder.

Please research the concept of a "Just War". Here is a good site for you to read:

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/just_war.htm

"
On the other hand, unjust anger seeks to do evil to another for its own sake, the harm to body or soul that it entails. While one may desire, and employ, physical force for the sake of correction, restraint of evil and restoring justice, even if it entails injury and death, one may never desire it for its own sake. To desire some slight injury for an evil motive would be venially sinful. To desire grave injury or death would be gravely sinful. A Christian may never, of course, desire the damnation of the evil doer. Charity requires that we will the good, especially the ultimate good, salvation, for every human being. Unfortunately, the entertainment media often promotes an image of anger and vengeance which is closer to blood lust than to justice






As with all moral acts the use of force to obtain justice must comply with three conditions to be morally good.

First, the act must be good in itself. The use of force to obtain justice is morally licit in itself.

Second, it must be done with a good intention, which as noted earlier must be to correct vice, to restore justice or to restrain evil, and not to inflict evil for its own sake.

Thirdly, it must be appropriate in the circumstances.


An act which may otherwise be good and well motivated can be sinful by reason of imprudent judgment and execution.
"

So sa madaling salita ay puwede pala ang pagdepensa sa asawa unlike doon sa naging tugon ng mga born again sa akin pero huwag na natin sila pag-usapan kasi hindi naman kayo pareho ng kinabilangan.

Ang sabi mo nga pala diyan ay ganito However, if you knock the the rapist unconscious with a blow to the head, and thereby stop the assault, but proceed futher to add more blows to the head with the intent of killing the rapist would constitute murder..

Papaano kung hindi mo nakuha sa isang pukpok lang ang mga kriminal at inaasinta ka ng baril, ano ang gagawin mo babarilin mo ba siya o pukpukin mo ulit para lang mawalan ng ulirat Very Happy

Thanks and peace!

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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by the700clowns on Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:04 pm

harballah wrote:

Walang anuman brad ravlam, pasensiya kana gusto ko na sanang isara kasi nagbigay na ng konklusyon si clowns pero parang may balak pa yatang makipagtalakayan si gordon kaya hayaan muna natin na mailatag niya ang stand niya sa topic at kapag wala na siyang ibang sasabihin ay doon ko na isasara ang thread.

Thanks and peace!

___

oo nga bro, buti di mo muna sinara at gusto yata akong subukan ni Gordon at nanlait pa dahil tagalog ang gamit ko. Rolling Eyes
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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by the700clowns on Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:27 pm

Gordon wrote:

Good comment. That's is the reason why I prefer to converse in english because I feel that that language is "richer" and I feel it is more suitable for use in intellectual discussions.

In english there is a deeper word that depicts "forgiveness" but has an altogether different level of meaning; and that word word is "condonation" (to ignore the offense). You are correct in understanding that the tagalog word " pinatawad" effectively means a "condonation" of an act, or effectively forgetting that the whole event happened at all. However that is not the meaning Catholicism is using

In this discussion, the term "forgiveness" as far as the catholic context is concerned ; implies that one can forgive a criminal without CONDONING the act of the criminal.

Now as far as policemen, soldiers, judges, DA's, mayor, and president are concerned; Please bear in mind that they are ACTING FOR AND IN BEHALF OF THE STATE OR GOVERNMENT and not in their personal identities.

Unless perhaps for the judge and president, none of the others you have mentioned have the discretionary powers to grant pardon. And if any pardon is enacted, it is based on STATE LAW and not religious law. The judge or president will pardon (or not) based on established legal guidelines.

___

hindi important kung anong language ang gamit basta may sense and logical ang argumento. ang dami ko nang nakadiskusyon na inglisero pero nonsense ang argumento at nonsense ang belief e.

pinatawad mo pero paparusahan pa rin?! what is the sense ng forgiveness na yun?! pakitang-tao lang yun!

about soldiers and policemen, e bakit magsusundalo ang isang Christian (Catholic) kung alam nyang magiging tool sya sa supposedly maling principles tulad ng hindi pagpatawad sa kalaban?! dapat bawal magsundalo at magpulis ang Christians.
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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by harballah on Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:38 pm

the700clowns wrote:

___

oo nga bro, buti di mo muna sinara at gusto yata akong subukan ni Gordon at nanlait pa dahil tagalog ang gamit ko. Rolling Eyes

Salam bro, sige tuloy mo lang hanggang mayroon pang nakipagtalakayan sa paksang ito at kung ayaw na ni ravlam ay mas maganda hayaan na lang muna kayo ni gordon na pag-usapan ang paksang ito.

Wasalam...

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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by RavlaM on Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:22 am

harballah wrote:

Salam bro, sige tuloy mo lang hanggang mayroon pang nakipagtalakayan sa paksang ito at kung ayaw na ni ravlam ay mas maganda hayaan na lang muna kayo ni gordon na pag-usapan ang paksang ito.

Wasalam...

Dapat nang isara ito kaibigang Clown, naresulba na ang issue..Walang nilait si Mr Gordon.
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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by harballah on Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:24 am

RavlaM wrote:

Dapat nang isara ito kaibigang Clown, naresulba na ang issue..Walang nilait si Mr Gordon.


Bakit ako ang kinowt mo gayong hindi ako si clowns scratch

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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by RavlaM on Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:39 am

harballah wrote:


Bakit ako ang kinowt mo gayong hindi ako si clowns scratch

Ay sorry Harby, nalito na tuloy ako...I was referring to Mr. 700 C.
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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by harballah on Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:36 am

RavlaM wrote:

Ay sorry Harby, nalito na tuloy ako...I was referring to Mr. 700 C.

Okey lang po wala pong problema sa akin at kung puwede pabayaan muna natin sila clowns at gordon unless gusto mo pang ituloy ang pag-uusap natin dito.

Illogical kasi iyong patatawarin mo sapagkat ina-apply mo ang katuruan LOVE YOUR ENEMIES pero pagkatapos mong patawarin (sa iyo nagkasala) ay ikukulong din at kung may parusang kamatayan ay mamamatay din ito pagkatapos mong patawarin, kaya nga tama si clowns noong sabihin niyang;-

the700clowns wrote:pinatawad mo pero paparusahan pa rin?! what is the sense ng forgiveness na yun?! pakitang-tao lang yun!

Tama siya pinatawad mo na nga paparusahan mo pa, mas mabuti pa sa Islam kasi kapag pinatawad ng pamilya ng biktima ay mapalaya na ang akusado o kriminal, siguro alam mo iyan kasi nandito ka sa saudi arabia.

Kitam mas aplikabol pa ang pagpapatawad sa Islam kaysa katuruan ninyong LOVE YOUR ENEMIES pero ikukulong at parurusahan din pala No

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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

Post by the700clowns on Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:49 pm

RavlaM wrote:

Dapat nang isara ito kaibigang Clown, naresulba na ang issue..Walang nilait si Mr Gordon.

____

hindi pa nareresolba Ravlam...


atsaka anong walang nilait?! pinalalabas nya na pag tagalog ang gamit na language e hindi kayang makipag-discuss intellectually. pasimpleng panlalait lang yan. Rolling Eyes
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Re: Love your enemies or fight your enemies? alin ang practical at makatotohanan?

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