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Circumcision: can it be reversed?

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by element_115x on Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:15 pm

fredms3 wrote:

Are you saying that our body don't have bacteria when God created us?

We are referring to 'bad' bacteria here. Not the beneficial ones. Smile
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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by fredms3 on Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:19 pm

element_115x wrote:

We are referring to 'bad' bacteria here. Not the beneficial ones.

Both. I'm asking about the good and bad bacteria.

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by Ateo on Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:25 pm

fredms3 wrote:

Ok, let's take first the issue that circumcision was prohibited by St. Paul. Where is that in the Bible?


Fred, I will indulge you with your request on bible lessons on circumcision, if you will concede on the other nine items here. Do it, what else can you do with statistics and facts but accept them?

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by fredms3 on Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:52 pm

Ateo wrote:


Fred, I will indulge you with your request on bible lessons on circumcision, if you will concede on the other nine items here. Do it, what else can you do with statistics and facts but accept them?

That's not a problem with me Ateo, that is - to concede to some and to some not.

I just would like to reiterate my point here that circumcision does not in any way take away our being perfect.

Can we proceed now Ateo with your circumcision lesson...

Btw, baka pwede ka namang maghagis ng pasalubong from Thailand via 'hulog eroplano'

--- grabe naman po yan tito fred.

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by Ateo on Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:33 pm

Even Jesus opined that circumcision was only introduced by the Mosaic laws and not a direct command from God.


'Moses gave you circumcision..." (John 7:22a)





Ref. http://www.cirp.org/pages/cultural/glass1/





The first pope, Peter, Smile also had this to say,



In Acts 15, there is an account of people coming from Judea and pushing circumcision on non-Jewish Christians. This is what Peter said:

'"My brothers, you know that ... God made a choice ... that I should be the one through whom the Gentiles would hear the message of the good news and become believers. And God, who knows the human heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us; and in cleaning their hearts by faith he has made no distinction between them and us. Now therefore why are you putting God to the test by placing on the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? On the contrary we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus just as they will."' (Acts 15:7b-11)





Then, of course, the hard-working Apostle Paul added,



'For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

'Listen! I, Paul, am telling you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. Once again I testify to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obliged to obey the entire law. You who want to be justified by the law have cut yourselves off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.' (Gal. 5:1-4)





Paul has a nasty term for those who believe in circumcision.





'Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of those who mutilate the flesh! …' (Phil. 3:2)







That, my brother Fred, is Circumcision 101. I hope you will not be a dog and will not mutilate the flesh (penis).



Paul demanded that you listen to him, so it bears repeating his words...



'Listen! I, Paul, am telling you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you.



Be warned, he he he.

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by fredms3 on Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:58 pm

Ateo,

Acts 15 was an important discussion. It was a matter of knowing if a pagan was saved only by believing in Jesus and being baptised, or if he first had to observe the religious laws and customs the Jews for whom circumcision was fundamental.

St. Peter clarified it in Acts 15:7-11.


With respect to Gal. 5:1-4

Are you telling me here that Christ will be of no benefit to St. Paul? Remember St. Paul was circumcised when he was 8 days old.


Beware of the dogs.....Phil 3:2

St. Paul applied this to the Jews who are very proud of being the chosen people, the very insults were these people reserved for non-Jews. They were circumcised yet they mocked people of other religions who incised their skin.


Now, what was Sts Paul and Peter were telling us --- Circumcision as to the law of Moses is of no use since such law can never justify us before God.

True circumcised persons are those who serve God according to the spirit, and their confidence is in Jesus Christ. (Phil 3).

Now, did Sts. Paul and Peter prohibited circumcision...definitely not.


Friend Ateo, remember not to mock people who incised their skin, otherwise, you fall unde Phil.3:2

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by Ateo on Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:29 am

You have an unusual way to interpret the verses, Fred, just to justify your circumcision. But while you are making some exegesis, the Magesterium called and told me that you are wrong. The RCC has a single stand on circumcision. Do you want me to tell you or you already know?

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by MarcCatholic on Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:18 am

Ako nagpatuli dahil naniniwala po akong magiging malinis ako dito at hindi mangangamoy kups ang aking wander. Very Happy
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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by Dhugz on Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:07 am

Ako rin naman, at mas pogi tingnan pag tuli ako hehehehehe
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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by fredms3 on Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:18 am

Ateo wrote:You have an unusual way to interpret the verses, Fred, just to justify your circumcision. But while you are making some exegesis, the Magesterium called and told me that you are wrong. The RCC has a single stand on circumcision. Do you want me to tell you or you already know?

Bigat mo pala Ateo, nakakausap mo ang Magisterium. Sige nga paki-inform nga ako.

Remember, ang pinag-uusapan natin dito ay kung pinagbawal nga ni San Pablo ang circumcision at binigay mo pa ang Gal. 5.

Dyan pa lang ay me problema ka na dahil mismong si San Pablo ay tinuli noong siya ay 8 days old lang.

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by Ateo on Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:29 pm

Fred, those Jewish apostles did not have control over their own circumcision because as you pointed out they were kids then. But they certainly had a say on circumcising new converts, particularly gentiles like Pinoys. And they said "no". Read the Bible, please.

Now, on the Magesterium, it speaks through the Cathechism, which is then enunciated by the bishops. Let me cite an specific teaching on circumcision. I am quoting from the official teachings of the RCC archdiocese of New York.


"After the famous confrontation between Paul and other leaders of the early church (Acts 15 and Galatians 2), Christians pretty much rejected the necessity of circumcision for becoming a believer in Christ.

The idea didn't entirely die, however. The theory that circumcision still held some spiritual benefits even for Christians, prompted at least some of the condemnations you speak of. The Council of Vienne (1311), for example, decreed that Christians should not be lured into Judaism or be circumcised for any reason.

The following century, the Council of Florence (1438-1435) ordered "all who glory in the name of Christian not to practice circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation."

Today, while nontherapeutic male circumcision remains common in some places, as a general practice it is forbidden in Catholic teaching for more basic reasons of respect for bodily integrity. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states, "Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against moral law" (N. 2297).

Elective circumcision clearly violates that standard. It is an amputation and mutilation, and, to my knowledge, and as you note, no significant medical group in the world defends it as having any therapeutic value. In 1999 the Council on Scientific Affairs of the American Medical Association stated that neonatal circumcision is nontherapeutic because no disease is present and no therapeutic treatment is required."





Anong say mo, Fred? Nagkamali ang pinakamalaking diocese sa America? Several church councils condemned it. The Catechism prohibited it. Please, naman brother Fred, makinig tayo sa Inang Iglesia.



Ref. http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/dietzen1/

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by ramcam2 on Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:07 pm

Ateo wrote:


Hi Fred, I am logging in from Bangkok (thanks to wifi here), where I am on vacation until 9 Aug.

Anyway, your analogy is not quite right. A tooth ache is not a natural state of things. It is a disease and not all people have that (I never had a toothache and never had a bad tooth -- my uncle is a dentist and I had kissable teeth since I was a child). Plugging aside, an uncircumcised penis is the natural state of that thing -- it was how "God" created it.

But before we mix up a lot of beliefs and myths here, let us establish some facts first -- from the Bible and statistics -- and tell me if you disagree with any of these:

1. That the overwhelming majority of Europeans (Catholics and Protestants) are uncircumcised.

2. That the Apostle Paul never wanted Filipinos and other gentiles to be circumcised. In fact he PROHIBITED it.

3. Because of 1 and 2 above, it is almost certain that the Pope himself is uncircumcised.

4. That in Latin America as well as in Canada, almost everybody is uncircumcised.

5. That in the US, the only major Christian country that is circumcised in addition to the Philippines, the proportion of uncircumcised is increasing.

6. That in South East and East Asia, only the Philippines is circumcised.

7. That only Muslims and some tribes in Africa are circumcised.

8. That Philippine circumcision practice was not brought here by the Spaniards (who are uncircumcised) but was already practiced here by primitive culture and reinforced by Muslim beliefs.

9. That the HUGE majority of the world is uncircumcised, so any so-called scientific wisdom and cleanliness wisdom of circumcision is largely ignored by the rest of the world.

10. That a circumcised penis is less sensitive or more manhid than the original form.

Please indicate if any of these facts from statistics and the Bible are not true or acceptable to you. Thanks!

I beg to disagree with #9 and #10. Studies have shown that the incidence of cancer of the cervix in Israel is much lower when compared with countries where majority of the population is not circumcised. Circumcised males get better sexual satisfaxtion compared with those whose prepuce are still intact. The prepuce acts as sheath for the glans penis in copulation mimicking a thicker condom thereby lessening sensation. Even females admit that they can feel the entire circumcised penis during intercourse compared to one with the foreskin still intact.
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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by RavlaM on Wed Aug 04, 2010 12:35 am

Tanong lang po ...paano naman po ang mga tinutuling kababaihan..
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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by fredms3 on Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:58 am

Ateo wrote:Fred, those Jewish apostles did not have control over their own circumcision because as you pointed out they were kids then. But they certainly had a say on circumcising new converts, particularly gentiles like Pinoys. And they said "no". Read the Bible, please.

Now, on the Magesterium, it speaks through the Cathechism, which is then enunciated by the bishops. Let me cite an specific teaching on circumcision. I am quoting from the official teachings of the RCC archdiocese of New York.


"After the famous confrontation between Paul and other leaders of the early church (Acts 15 and Galatians 2), Christians pretty much rejected the necessity of circumcision for becoming a believer in Christ.

The idea didn't entirely die, however. The theory that circumcision still held some spiritual benefits even for Christians, prompted at least some of the condemnations you speak of. The Council of Vienne (1311), for example, decreed that Christians should not be lured into Judaism or be circumcised for any reason.

The following century, the Council of Florence (1438-1435) ordered "all who glory in the name of Christian not to practice circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation."

Today, while nontherapeutic male circumcision remains common in some places, as a general practice it is forbidden in Catholic teaching for more basic reasons of respect for bodily integrity. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states, "Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against moral law" (N. 2297).

Elective circumcision clearly violates that standard. It is an amputation and mutilation, and, to my knowledge, and as you note, no significant medical group in the world defends it as having any therapeutic value. In 1999 the Council on Scientific Affairs of the American Medical Association stated that neonatal circumcision is nontherapeutic because no disease is present and no therapeutic treatment is required."





Anong say mo, Fred? Nagkamali ang pinakamalaking diocese sa America? Several church councils condemned it. The Catechism prohibited it. Please, naman brother Fred, makinig tayo sa Inang Iglesia.



Ref. [url=http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/dietzen1/
http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/dietzen1/[/quote[/url]]

Later ko na lang check yang mga references mo.

Binasa ko na Ateo ang Bible at walang sinasabi na masama ang circumcision. I already explained everything on my previous post.

At yan ba ang sinasabi mong kausap mo ang Magisterium. Let me ask you brother Ateo:

Did St. Paul not benefit from Christ because he was circumcised?

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by Ateo on Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:38 am

Okay, I will wait until you have read my source. By the way, why are you being selective now? You seem to be ignoring that I have already mentioned church Councils that banned circumcision. And the Catechism too. Even the pope is unlikely to be circumcised. Germans are not. So, can we just follow our pope instead of primitive pagan Pinoy tradition?

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by fredms3 on Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:02 pm

Ateo wrote:Okay, I will wait until you have read my source. By the way, why are you being selective now? You seem to be ignoring that I have already mentioned church Councils that banned circumcision. And the Catechism too. Even the pope is unlikely to be circumcised. Germans are not. So, can we just follow our pope instead of primitive pagan Pinoy tradition?

Not selective, but that was part of your position that circumcised people will not benefit from Christ -- and i'm already junking that position of yours biblically.

Unless you don't want to answer that position, well, it's understanble.

With respect to references, let me read them first okies ba?

Biglang tumaas yata ang reputation mo ha Ateo, lolsss...anyway, that's in another thread.

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by Ateo on Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:22 pm

Thanks sa reputation vote mo, Fred.

BAck to topic, ito na yung summary na ating discussions so far in my view:

1. Paul's writings on circumcision -- magkaiba pa rin ang ating interpretation. I don't thing magkatugma tayo rito kahit ilang libong posts pa ang gagawin natin.

2. Several church councils condemned circumcision -- this clearly supports my position and my interpretation of Paul. You have not satisfactorily addressed this fact.

3. The pope is German Catholic and very likely to be uncircumcised. You did not refute this nor did you explain why you won't follow his example.

4. The Archiodecese of Brooklyn (New York) explained why circumcision is prohibited in the Catechism. You did not refute this either.

5. Circumcision and health benefits. We can endlessly argue on this. There will always be doctors on both sides. I think the big medical associations should have final say on this matter.

6. I explained the pagan origins and Muslim reinforcement of Pinoy circumcision. You did not refute this.

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by fredms3 on Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:26 pm

Ateo wrote:Thanks sa reputation vote mo, Fred.

BAck to topic, ito na yung summary na ating discussions so far in my view:

1. Paul's writings on circumcision -- magkaiba pa rin ang ating interpretation. I don't thing magkatugma tayo rito kahit ilang libong posts pa ang gagawin natin.

2. Several church councils condemned circumcision -- this clearly supports my position and my interpretation of Paul. You have not satisfactorily addressed this fact.

3. The pope is German Catholic and very likely to be uncircumcised. You did not refute this nor did you explain why you won't follow his example.

4. The Archiodecese of Brooklyn (New York) explained why circumcision is prohibited in the Catechism. You did not refute this either.

5. Circumcision and health benefits. We can endlessly argue on this. There will always be doctors on both sides. I think the big medical associations should have final say on this matter.

6. I explained the pagan origins and Muslim reinforcement of Pinoy circumcision. You did not refute this.

Sisimulan ko ng pag-aralan ang binigay mong references.

1. Me tanong akong di mo parin sinasagot patungkol kay St. Paul na hindi magbi- benefit from Christ dahil siya'y natuli.

2. Sisimulan ko ng basahin ang references mo ---relaks ka lang Ateo

3. Sa Pope, ikaw ang dapat magpatunay na hindi siya tuli --- kung paano, problema mo na yan -- except kung me x-ray shade ka at makikita mo ang area na yun
4. Yung no. 6, i think i don't have to delve on that.

Ma-debunk ko lang ang position mo biblically ay tapos na para sa akin ang usapang ito.

Sagutin mo lang ang tanong ko regarding St. Paul not benefiting from Christ because he was circumcised, ay solve na tong usapan na to.

Still, i would respond sa mga references mo.

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by Ateo on Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:29 am

You don't have to debunk my position biblically. Walang natatapos na debate based sa Bible because the Bible can be interpreted in so many ways.

What is important is that I asserted that the Roman Catholic Church is a monolithic (bato) institution and it has only one position on this issue. That position has been expounded by the Archdiocese of Brooklyn (New York), which clearly said that ciccumcision violates the RCC Catechism on respect to the integrity of the body. I will assume that the RCC teaching is based on the Bible and applies to you.

I challenge you, Fred, to cite your counter-reference from a authoritative Catholic source supporting your position.

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by miss_terry on Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:25 am

Ayos to!
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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by gin on Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:29 am

miss_terry wrote:Ayos to!

Hey! Bawal tayo dito, Miss Terry
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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by fredms3 on Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:48 am

Ateo wrote:You don't have to debunk my position biblically. Walang natatapos na debate based sa Bible because the Bible can be interpreted in so many ways.

What is important is that I asserted that the Roman Catholic Church is a monolithic (bato) institution and it has only one position on this issue. That position has been expounded by the Archdiocese of Brooklyn (New York), which clearly said that ciccumcision violates the RCC Catechism on respect to the integrity of the body. I will assume that the RCC teaching is based on the Bible and applies to you.

I challenge you, Fred, to cite your counter-reference from a authoritative Catholic source supporting your position.

Ateo,

Then answer my question regarding St. Paul not benefitting from Christ.

With respect to your challenge, we are now looking into that. Just relax and we will come into that term.

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by Ateo on Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:23 am

Paul was already circumcised, according to the laws of Moses, before he was called by Christ. Obviously, his being called enabled him to benefit from Christ despite his circumcised status because he did not have any option by then, did he? There was no reconstructive surgery at that time.

But, if you knowingly circumcised your son despite Paul clear exhortation against the practice, then you are risking indeed the benefits of Christ.

Those are not my words (I'm an atheist); those are Paul's.

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by fredms3 on Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:27 am

Christ was also circumcised.

Granting without accepting that there was no recon surgery at that time, then what about a miracle? Can St. Paul and the rest too timid to pray for a miracle for its return to its orignal state if your interpretation is really correct?

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by Ateo on Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:34 pm

Kasi sakop pa siya sa batas ni Moses. E si Pablo gusto niya bagong tipan na at wala ng tuli tuli.

Miracle for the prepuce? Gee, Fred, sa dami dami ng pwedeng hingan ng milagro, doon pa sa parteng yun? Hanubayan!

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

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