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Circumcision: can it be reversed?

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by Ateo on Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:34 pm

[double posting]

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by fredms3 on Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:16 pm

Ateo wrote:Kasi sakop pa siya sa batas ni Moses. E si Pablo gusto niya bagong tipan na at wala ng tuli tuli.

Miracle for the prepuce? Gee, Fred, sa dami dami ng pwedeng hingan ng milagro, doon pa sa parteng yun? Hanubayan!

Lolsssss..

Wag mong sabihin Ateo na yang interpretasyon mo ay hindi alam ni Hesus at yan ang nais Niyang ipasunod sa sangkristyanuhan --- remember: Circumcised person will never benefit from Christ.

Kung si Christ mismo ay tinuli --- He Himself will not benefit from everything that He will do.

If the issue there is salvation, then Christ failed.

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by Ateo on Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:34 pm

Is this a new theology, exegesis or hermeneutics, Fred? Alam ba ng RCC itong pinanindigan mo? Naayon ba ito sa interpretasyon ng Iglesia Katolika na siyang may karapatang magturo sa tamang interpretasyon ng nakasulat?

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by fredms3 on Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:51 pm

Ateo wrote:Is this a new theology, exegesis or hermeneutics, Fred? Alam ba ng RCC itong pinanindigan mo? Naayon ba ito sa interpretasyon ng Iglesia Katolika na siyang may karapatang magturo sa tamang interpretasyon ng nakasulat?

Di ba nakakausap mo ang Magisterium Ateo , then why don't ask them now regarding the position i'm telling you.

Ang ipinipilit mo kasi ay ang mga tinuli will never benefit from Christ-- malinaw na sabit si Kristo dyan.

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by Ateo on Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:29 pm

Fred, the phrase "while you were out, your Magesterium called" is just a figure of speech, I assume you know that Smile

My understanding about the Pauline verses is that Paul demanded that NEW recruits from the ranks of the gentiles should not be circumcised. If they would be circumcised, then they would not benefit from Christ but will be subjected to the burdens of the Mosaic laws.

Jesus and Paul were not new recruits. They were circumcised in childhood. So, Paul's instructions did not apply to either of them.

Now, back to your RCC. Tell me what is its position on the issue. Thanks.

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by fredms3 on Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:51 pm

Ateo wrote:Fred, the phrase "while you were out, your Magesterium called" is just a figure of speech, I assume you know that Smile

My understanding about the Pauline verses is that Paul demanded that NEW recruits from the ranks of the gentiles should not be circumcised. If they would be circumcised, then they would not benefit from Christ but will be subjected to the burdens of the Mosaic laws.

Jesus and Paul were not new recruits. They were circumcised in childhood. So, Paul's instructions did not apply to either of them.

Now, back to your RCC. Tell me what is its position on the issue. Thanks.

Yes, i know about your figure of speech Ateo.

We are talking here of salvation (benefitting from Christ). That line is precisely pointed to those conservative jews who insist that salvation can be gained only thru circumcision. With that kind of thinking, Christ will definitely not beneficial to them.

Sorry, no response pa rin sa friend kong nag-aral ng priesthood. I'l post it here the moment i have it na.

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by Ateo on Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:06 am

fredms3 wrote:...
We are talking here of salvation (benefitting from Christ). That line is precisely pointed to those conservative jews who insist that salvation can be gained only thru circumcision. With that kind of thinking, Christ will definitely not beneficial to them.

Sorry, no response pa rin sa friend kong nag-aral ng priesthood. I'l post it here the moment i have it na.


I can understand your words, but, frankly, I don't understand the meaning of what you were saying. Are you claiming that circumcision is optional and that a gentile that will be circumcised is not violating Paul's teaching or the teaching of Catholic councils and catechism.


By Catholic council, I am referring to several ecumenical councils. One example in particular is the Council in Florence in 1442. The decrees of the council is given in the link I provided here: http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM#5 This council denounced circumcision. It is a long decree but just search the term "circumcision". For your convenience, I quoted the relevant part below:

"[The Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes and teaches that the legal prescriptions of the Old Testament or the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, holy sacrifices and sacraments, because they were instituted to signify something in the future, although they were adequate for the divine cult of that age, once our Lord Jesus Christ who was signified by them had come, came to an end and the sacraments of the new Testament had their beginning. Whoever, after the Passion, places his hope in the legal prescriptions and submits himself to them as necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not save, sins mortally. It does not deny that from Christ's passion until the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been retained, provided they were in no way believed to be necessary for salvation. But it asserts that after the promulgation of the gospel they cannot be observed without loss of eternal salvation. Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe circumcision, the [Jewish] sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal salvation, unless they recoil at some time from these errors. Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practise circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation."



Read the highlighted sentence and please tell me if the Council was wrong or not. I thought Councils are free from errors.

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by fredms3 on Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:05 pm

Ateo wrote:


I can understand your words, but, frankly, I don't understand the meaning of what you were saying. Are you claiming that circumcision is optional and that a gentile that will be circumcised is not violating Paul's teaching or the teaching of Catholic councils and catechism.


By Catholic council, I am referring to several ecumenical councils. One example in particular is the Council in Florence in 1442. The decrees of the council is given in the link I provided here: http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM#5 This council denounced circumcision. It is a long decree but just search the term "circumcision". For your convenience, I quoted the relevant part below:

"[The Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes and teaches that the legal prescriptions of the Old Testament or the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, holy sacrifices and sacraments, because they were instituted to signify something in the future, although they were adequate for the divine cult of that age, once our Lord Jesus Christ who was signified by them had come, came to an end and the sacraments of the new Testament had their beginning. Whoever, after the Passion, places his hope in the legal prescriptions and submits himself to them as necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not save, sins mortally. It does not deny that from Christ's passion until the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been retained, provided they were in no way believed to be necessary for salvation. But it asserts that after the promulgation of the gospel they cannot be observed without loss of eternal salvation. Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe circumcision, the [Jewish] sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal salvation, unless they recoil at some time from these errors. Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practise circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation."



Read the highlighted sentence and please tell me if the Council was wrong or not. I thought Councils are free from errors.

You got my point there Ateo. Thanks for posting it.

Now, let's clarify what the council meant when it said about circumcision. Does it denounces circumcision per se or the kind of thinking those conservative jews are tying to enforce -- that is --- salvation thru circumcision.

The line "Unless they recoil at some time from these errors," gives us the picture that indeed said ruling is not permanent and absolute.

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by Ateo on Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:07 pm

Fred, I am afraid that you are grasping at straws in interpreting Florence. The phrase "unless they recoil at some time from these errors" is a warning to you. If you don't recoil from the errors of circumcision, then there is no salvation to you. Recoil now, denounce circumcision. That is what your Council ordered.

In our previous discusssions, you are quick to read a prohibition (e.g, against masturbation) even if it is not in the wordings of the literature. But here, the wordings are clear and you are ignoring it. Let us quote Florence again and tell me why this is not clear enough. It should be clear enough to our other readers.

"Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christ, not to practise circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation."

Very clear.

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by fredms3 on Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:10 pm

And what is the errors of circumcision Ateo?

Let's discuss the issue of masturbation where it should be. I'm always ready to answer there.

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by Ateo on Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:18 am

Malay ko, Fred Smile Di naman ako Katoliko at wala akong pakialam kung ano ang pinagsasabi ng Florence. Basta klaro sa kanilang sinabi na pinagbabawal nila ang pagtuli. Di ba?

Oo, kung matapos na itong sinulid na ito ay tutuloy tayo sa masturbation.

Kumbaga, hihimayin natin ang mga spiritual na kahalagahan ng t*t*, he he he he.

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by element_115x on Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:03 pm

Matanung lang... yung mga Phallic symbols na associated sa religious beliefs -- suput ba o tuli???
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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by Ateo on Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:34 pm



Christianity doesn't use phallic symbols. But the Vatican uses an Egyptian obelisk. Like all Egyptian obelisk, it is pointed at the end, thus clearly supot. I have yet to see a mushroom-tipped circumcised phallic symbol. It would not look good.

The only other phallic symbol of Christianity is the Easter candle, a huge, erect candle. It is now explained as a symbol for light (as in "Christ is the light of the world") but phallic symbols have always been associated with Easter festivals as the symbol for life (as in, you know why, he he he).

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by fredms3 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:44 pm

Ateo wrote:Malay ko, Fred Smile Di naman ako Katoliko at wala akong pakialam kung ano ang pinagsasabi ng Florence. Basta klaro sa kanilang sinabi na pinagbabawal nila ang pagtuli. Di ba?

Oo, kung matapos na itong sinulid na ito ay tutuloy tayo sa masturbation.

Kumbaga, hihimayin natin ang mga spiritual na kahalagahan ng t*t*, he he he he.

Lolssss...di mo pala alam Ateo kung ano ang pinagsasabi ng Florence...paano ako maniniwala na pinagbabawal nga ng Florence ang pagtutuli.

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by Ateo on Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:50 pm

Fred, naman o. Klaro naman ang sinabi ng Florence ah, kahit na hindi gamitan ng kung ano anong hermeneutics. Sabi ni Aling Florence,

"Therefore it strictly orders ... not to practise circumcision ... since... it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation."

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by fredms3 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:11 pm

Mukhang ikaw lang yata Ateo ang may topic dito ah

That's because of the errors behind circumcision kaya yan ay inuutos.

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by Ateo on Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:22 am

I think this thread has pretty run out of arguments. Fred and I have thoroughly explored the religious arguments for and against circumcision.

How about you all? What do you think?

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by gin on Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:06 am

Ateo wrote:I think this thread has pretty run out of arguments. Fred and I have thoroughly explored the religious arguments for and against circumcision.

How about you all? What do you think?

What's in here? Are girls allowed to post here?

But let me say my piece:

There's no way you could ever reverse it. Puera na lang po kung ma-recover n'yo pa 'yong piece of skin na nawala sa inyo nung bata pa kayo, then undergo a surgery for that
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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by Ateo on Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:12 am

gin wrote: What's in here? Are girls allowed to post here?

But let me say my piece:

There's no way you could ever reverse it. Puera na lang po kung ma-recover n'yo pa 'yong piece of skin na nawala sa inyo nung bata pa kayo, then undergo a surgery for that


Well, considering that you have once strayed to the boys' side, you are welcome to make comments here, he he he he.

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Re: Circumcision: can it be reversed?

Post by fredms3 on Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:47 am

Ateo wrote:I think this thread has pretty run out of arguments. Fred and I have thoroughly explored the religious arguments for and against circumcision.

How about you all? What do you think?

I believe so Ateo. Let others comment even girls if they want to.

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