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Heaven and Earth

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Heaven and Earth

Post by Esther on Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:42 am

As the Scriptures states, in genesis particulary, God created heaven and earth. However a controversial point arises and a disagreement is noticed between theologians on whether heaven (the non material form of life) was created before or atthe same time with the material(physical) universe.

Despite that, other notable theologians as well (catholics but mainly protestants), believe that God created heaven and the material universe at the same time, they base their theory on the bible itslef, and on the passage found in genesis that God created heaven and earth, genesis could have included that God created heaven then earth if the latter was created later on, they add.

Share your valuable insight regarding this subject.


thnx

Esther

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Re: Heaven and Earth

Post by Esther on Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:50 pm

Please join me before this thread slips into oblivion.

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Re: Heaven and Earth

Post by element_115x on Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:20 pm

Earth could've been formed way way after the other heavenly bodies, such as stars and galaxies and quasars were formed. Smile
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Re: Heaven and Earth

Post by Esther on Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:01 pm

element_115x wrote:Earth could've been formed way way after the other heavenly bodies, such as stars and galaxies and quasars were formed. Smile

quasar the high redshift galactic nuclei, earth and heavenly are in the material universe how about the non material (heaven) the spirits?

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Re: Heaven and Earth

Post by element_115x on Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:23 pm

Esther wrote:

quasar the high redshift galactic nuclei, earth and heavenly are in the material universe how about the non material (heaven) the spirits?

At best, we can only offer conjectures and suppositions about such things, imo. Smile I'm not saying they don't exist. It's just that we don't have enough information about them to even begin asking how they came to be. For now we can only rely on how the ancients envision them to be.

Who knows, the LHC experiments at CERN will probably unravel the theoretical physicists' view of an 11 dimensional plane of existence in a vast multiverse, and discover that these spiritual entities reside in one or a few of them. Smile
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Re: Heaven and Earth

Post by Esther on Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:29 pm

element_115x wrote:

At best, we can only offer conjectures and suppositions about such things, imo. Smile I'm not saying they don't exist. It's just that we don't have enough information about them to even begin asking how they came to be. For now we can only rely on how the ancients envision them to be.

Who knows, the LHC experiments at CERN will probably unravel the theoretical physicists' view of an 11 dimensional plane of existence in a vast multiverse, and discover that these spiritual entities reside there. Smile

that's interesting.

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Re: Heaven and Earth

Post by Esther on Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:32 pm

Do you believe in evolution theory?

IMHO - I think that evolution of the body, prior to the true human species is a
possibility.

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Re: Heaven and Earth

Post by Esther on Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:14 pm

what's that Monetary Monotheist attached in your avatar?

Monetary Monotheist isn't a religion.

if it were,

we'd have a much easier time raising money Very Happy

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Re: Heaven and Earth

Post by element_115x on Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:54 pm

Esther wrote:Do you believe in evolution theory?

IMHO - I think that evolution of the body, prior to the true human species is a
possibility.

Knowing evolution is happening all around us as we speak (or type) is not a matter for 'belief'. Smile

What is a 'true human species' ?


Last edited by element_115x on Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Heaven and Earth

Post by element_115x on Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:02 pm

Esther wrote:what's that Monetary Monotheist attached in your avatar?

Monetary Monotheist isn't a religion.

if it were,

we'd have a much easier time raising money Very Happy

Hehehe. Razz I simply realized all, if not the majority of people who want to survive in our society (where everything matters as we're still alive) are onto the acquisition of money. It has become the über-driving force why people wake up every morning. Money, after all, is God in these tumultuous times we're in. But this is out of topic already... Smile
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Re: Heaven and Earth

Post by miss_terry on Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:39 pm

I like you're avatar elemental! lol

@topic, that's an interesting topic.
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Re: Heaven and Earth

Post by Esther on Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:59 am

miss_terry wrote:I like you're avatar elemental! lol

@topic, that's an interesting topic.

yes, but we cannot soar high, element5x has no wings to fly into the heavens of angels. Smile

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Re: Heaven and Earth

Post by element_115x on Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:03 pm

miss_terry wrote:I like you're avatar elemental! lol

@topic, that's an interesting topic.

You look like a faerie hehe Razz

Esther wrote:yes, but we cannot soar high, element5x has no wings to fly into the heavens of angels.

I have an inter-dimensional space vehicle hehe. Razz
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Re: Heaven and Earth

Post by tern on Mon Jul 26, 2010 3:50 am

Esther wrote:
As the Scriptures states, in genesis particulary, God created heaven and earth. However a controversial point arises and a disagreement is noticed between theologians on whether heaven (the non material form of life) was created before or atthe same time with the material(physical) universe.

Despite that, other notable theologians as well (catholics but mainly protestants), believe that God created heaven and the material universe at the same time, they base their theory on the bible itslef, and on the passage found in genesis that God created heaven and earth, genesis could have included that God created heaven then earth if the latter was created later on, they add.

Share your valuable insight regarding this subject.


thnx

Esther

Sorry ...I just can't see the point ... if god created everything, why bother theorizing whether heaven was created before or at the same time with the universe - except maybe to alleviate the concept from stagnancy?

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Re: Heaven and Earth

Post by element_115x on Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:59 am

Anyway i was watching Bro. Eli last night, and he says God has a world of his own which has a habitable part, and obviously an uninhabitable part as well. Could that be a planet being described? It definitely can't be Heaven... not unless Heaven has uninhabitable parts? Razz

The Bible even says that before the Genesis Creation Story, God was 'daily rejoicing with Jesus on this habitable part of His world'. Could that signify that God's world has days and nights too? ergo has it's own light source or a sun too? Considering that this was way before God started Creating as Genesis recounts, or so i heard this Pastor teaches.

I hope ADD members can clear this thing up. Smile
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Re: Heaven and Earth

Post by sakundes on Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:05 pm

it is clearly stated in the bible that this non-material heaven you are referring to is indeed solid.. it is termed as a firmament.
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Re: Heaven and Earth

Post by sakundes on Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:06 pm

if you wanna discuess GENESIS and how absurd it is, then here.. eat your hearts out ^_^

(if this is a purely religious discussion without the scientific variables then feel free to ignore this post)

The Torah is VERY errant and contradictive to that of scientific facts. The first book of Genesis alone should be enough to invalidate Judaism to any INTELLIGENT person. Sadly, not only is Judaism still one of the world’s leading religions, but it has spawned the most insane theism (Christianity). The goal of this page is to expose the inaccuracies of the Torah, hence shooting down its divine claim. All the verses shall appear in chronological order. Feel free to copy what ever you wish.

1) The Genesis 1 creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. Genesis 1:1 The earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. From science, we know that the true order of events was just the opposite.

2) “And God said, Let there be light” (Genesis 1:3) and “. . .And the evening and the morning were the first day” (Genesis 1 :5), versus “And God said, ‘Let there be light in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night....’ “And God made two lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also… And the evening and morning were the fourth day” (Genesis 1 :14-19). These violates two major facts. Light cannot exist without a sun, and secondly, how can morning be distinguished from evening unless there is a sun and moon? Christians try to claim that god is the light he is referring to yet, considering the context it is quite obvious that the light god is speaking of is the light emitted by the sun. Just another feeble attempt at trying to rationalize such a MAJOR blunder.

3) God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament (Genesis 1:6-Cool. This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters. This firmament, if it existed, would have been quite an obstacle to our space program.

4) Plants are made on the third day (Genesis 1:11) before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (Genesis 1:14-19).

5) “And God said, ‘Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind… ‘And the evening and the morning were the third day” (Genesis 1:11-13), versus “And God said, ‘Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life… And God created - great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly… And the evening and the morning were the fifth day” (Genesis 1:20-23). Genesis says that life existed first on the land as plants and later the seas teemed with living creatures. Geological science can prove that the sea teemed with animals and vegetable life long before vegetation and life appeared on land.

6) “And God said, ‘Let the water bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven” (Genesis 1:20). Birds did not emerge from water.

7) "And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, the beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made…every thing that creepth upon the earth after his kind…" (Genesis 1:24-25). Science contends that reptiles were created long before mammals, not simultaneously. While reptiles existed in the Carboniferous Age, mammals did not appear until the close of the Reptilian Age.

Cool “So God created man in his own image,...male and female created he them” (Genesis 1:27), and “the evening and the morning were the sixth day” (Genesis 1:31). If Adam was created on the 6th day, approximately 6,000 years ago (Bishop Usher’s calculations), then nobody lived before 4,000 B.C. Prehistoric men would be fictitious. By tracing the genealogy of Jesus back 77 generations to Adam, the third chapter of Luke also supports belief in a very young earth. If each man had lived approximately 100 years, then the world would be no more than 9,684 (7,700 + 1984) years old. If each of Jesus’ ancestors had lived to be 1,000 years old (an age not even reached by Methuselah), the earth would still be only 78,984 (77,000 + 1984) years old, according to creationists.

9) “And to every beast of the earth, and every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so” (Genesis 1:30). Carnivorous beasts and fowl do not eat green herbs, nor were all animals originally herbivores. Simply consider tapeworms, vampire bats, mosquitoes, barracudas, tigers, etc.

10) In Genesis 1, the entire creation takes 6 days (Genesis 1:31), at the end of which the earth and its living things are pretty much as they are today. But we know from modern science that the universe (including the earth and life on earth) evolved slowly over billions of years.

11) In Genesis 2:7 humans are created instantaneously from dust and breath, whereas they actually evolved over millions of years from simpler life forms. Science can in fact trace back human evolution CONCLUSIVELY 3 .2 million years.

12) God makes the animals (Genesis 2:18) and parades them before Adam to see if any would strike his fancy. But none seem to have what it takes to please him. After making the animals, God has Adam name them all. The naming of several million species must have kept Adam busy for a while, why Adam would still have to be living for we haven’t even discovered nor named all the species. Also consider the idea of every living creature being brought to the Middle East, that would have killed many animals due to climatic changes.
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Re: Heaven and Earth

Post by Esther on Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:12 pm

sakundes wrote:it is clearly stated in the bible that this non-material heaven you are referring to is indeed solid.. it is termed as a firmament.

I thought they are invisible? If it can be seen by a material eye it is not non-material(physical).

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Re: Heaven and Earth

Post by Esther on Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:11 am

element_115x wrote:

I have an inter-dimensional space vehicle hehe. Razz

Is it more sophisticated than that of Diana Princess ? She can go home in an invisible plane. I only wonder if Wonder Woman wears a Wonder Bra.

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Re: Heaven and Earth

Post by Esther on Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:15 am

tern wrote:

Sorry ...I just can't see the point ... if god created everything, why bother theorizing whether heaven was created before or at the same time with the universe - except maybe to alleviate the concept from stagnancy?

who knows by going through it, we can find some ideas why Lucifer fell in the Paradise of Adam and Eve.

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Re: Heaven and Earth

Post by ramcam2 on Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:30 am

from the Catechism:

326 The Scriptural expression "heaven and earth" means all that exists, creation in its entirety. It also indicates the bond, deep within creation, that both unites heaven and earth and distinguishes the one from the other: "the earth" is the world of men, while "heaven" or "the heavens" can designate both the firmament and God's own "place" - "our Father in heaven" and consequently the "heaven" too which is eschatological glory. Finally, "heaven" refers to the saints and the "place" of the spiritual creatures, the angels, who surround God.186
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Re: Heaven and Earth

Post by Esther on Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:09 am

ramcam2 wrote:from the Catechism:

326 The Scriptural expression "heaven and earth" means all that exists, creation in its entirety. It also indicates the bond, deep within creation, that both unites heaven and earth and distinguishes the one from the other: "the earth" is the world of men, while "heaven" or "the heavens" can designate both the firmament and God's own "place" - "our Father in heaven" and consequently the "heaven" too which is eschatological glory. Finally, "heaven" refers to the saints and the "place" of the spiritual creatures, the angels, who surround God.186

ramcam,

may I asked for more questions. Where is Lucifer before the fall?

thanks.

Dear fellow readers,

Our disscussions here are not infallible some may fall on one owns fallible opinion, some are speculative, so feel free to join us and share your insight on this matter.

yours in Christ,

Esther

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Re: Heaven and Earth

Post by OneJack on Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:22 pm

sakundes wrote:if you wanna discuess GENESIS and how absurd it is, then here.. eat your hearts out ^_^

(if this is a purely religious discussion without the scientific variables then feel free to ignore this post)

The Torah is VERY errant and contradictive to that of scientific facts. The first book of Genesis alone should be enough to invalidate Judaism to any INTELLIGENT person. Sadly, not only is Judaism still one of the world’s leading religions, but it has spawned the most insane theism (Christianity). The goal of this page is to expose the inaccuracies of the Torah, hence shooting down its divine claim. All the verses shall appear in chronological order. Feel free to copy what ever you wish.


The One that is truly divine is the Lord God himself, do you believe God is real and alive? Considering that you're premise is true, does that affect the reality of God if you believe God is real and alive?

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Re: Heaven and Earth

Post by sakundes on Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:55 pm

The One that is truly divine is the Lord God himself, do you believe God is real and alive? Considering that you're premise is true, does that affect the reality of God if you believe God is real and alive?

i have posted the reason why christianity is too absurd to begin with and incompatible with all the scientific laws we have at present.
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Re: Heaven and Earth

Post by OneJack on Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:58 pm

sakundes wrote:

i have posted the reason why christianity is too absurd to begin with and incompatible with all the scientific laws we have at present.

Granting that what you have said is true, does that affect the reality of God?

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Re: Heaven and Earth

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